Indigenous people and Science

[Walter]

Vaguely back on topic...the milky sap in lettuce contains an opioid- like substance, hence the Flopsy Bunnies falling asleep on a compost heap. Not sure how much lettuce you’d need to eat to get the same effect, but Katie Boyle in the TV Times always used to recommend boiling water poured over a bowl of lettuce and put on a bedside table so the steam can be breathed in for insomnia.

to get the benefit you would have to eat it , the steam would just be water vapour , you might as well forget the lettuce !

[Walter]

however I've sent out for a box of lettuce just in case , thanks for the tip (as Justin said to Tintin)

[Rhiannon]

If it doesn't work blame Katie. 

[Walter]

If it doesn't work blame Katie. 

I remember she had an innocent sexuality about her .And I was just a youngster!

[Rhiannon]

I wouldn’t know. Anyway, I think I was about eight or nine when I read that. Don’t ask me why I remember it.

[Sriram]

Plant medicine is another area where indigenous people have valuable knowledge.

Ahem! ..cough!..cough!   

...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.

Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.

Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms.  Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son.  The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.

All this takes money and dedicated effort.  Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before.  Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.

[Walter]

Ahem! ..cough!..cough!   

...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.

Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.

Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms.  Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son.  The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.

All this takes money and dedicated effort.  Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before.  Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.

unfortunately Ayurveda is considered  pseudoscientific form of medicine .No matter how ancient or popular it's still not proper medicine , no matter how much you want it to be , sorry

[Udayana]

Ahem! ..cough!..cough!   

...if you both don't mind I would like to continue the discussion on the subject.

Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.

Many of the herbs are not readily available due to depleting forest areas. They have to be grown specifically for medical purposes in large farms.  Also, most of the texts are n Sanskrit and were taught from father to son.  The texts need to be acquired, translated and taught to interested students in colleges.

All this takes money and dedicated effort.  Indian Govt. has now initiated some action in that direction....and Ayurveda is becoming more popular than ever before.  Most people now go to modern medicine only for surgeries and emergency requirements.

I would have thought if it was so effective and so popular there would be huge amounts of money being thrown at it?

[jeremyp]

Ayurveda which is about 3000 years old has many valuable cures that would be very useful world over if only people put in enough money, time and qualified people to research on the thousands of herbal medicines that are available for a variety of ailments.

I think they do, don't they. I'm sure I read that drugs companies send people out to find "new" herbal medicines that might be turned into usable drugs.

[Sriram]

unfortunately Ayurveda is considered  pseudoscientific form of medicine .No matter how ancient or popular it's still not proper medicine , no matter how much you want it to be , sorry

You really must shed the 'Empire' tendency of sitting in England  and making lofty proclamations about things you have no clue about.

[Sriram]

I think they do, don't they. I'm sure I read that drugs companies send people out to find "new" herbal medicines that might be turned into usable drugs.

There are some companies that specialize only in Ayurvedic products...but they are mostly about toothpastes, shampoos, face creams, soaps and so on. 

I was talking about researching on the whole gamut of Ayurveda in general. No individual company would do that. It involves not just translation of ancient texts such as Charaka Samitha or Sushruta Samhitha.

Ayurveda has developed differently in different regions over the centuries to suit the availability of herbs locally. The Himalayan system for example is quite different from the deep south Kerala system. Even within a region, different traditions could be followed by different schools established by different practitioners over the centuries (Kottakkal and Warrier for example). And each of these could be in a different language. Some of it could be transmitted through oral tradition and may not even be available in writing.

Acquiring all these relevant texts, translation, identifying the herbs (which could run into thousands), cataloging, clinical research on their individual efficacy, preparing the drugs using modern methods....etc. etc....all this is a herculean task that no individual company will undertake.     

The Indian Govt. has set up a department specifically for such matters. They seem to be doing something.

[Rhiannon]

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/G

[Walter]

You really must shed the 'Empire' tendency of sitting in England  and making lofty proclamations about things you have no clue about.

Actually I'm no supporter of empire although I am sitting in England and if I am making proclamations about things I know nothing about , so are you .

I have no doubt the herbs and plants you refer to have properties useful to human medicine . But its not the plant its self. The plant may contain active ingredients which can then be isolated and manufactured synthetically ,tested and correct dosages worked out .
I'm guessing many people will have been killed from use of some of these herbs because 'practitioners' have no idea how they work or what the active ingredients are and are unable to give correct dosages.

[Rhiannon]

One huge problem with plant medicines is that a lot are ‘wild cultivated’ ie. taken from their natural habitats. Echinacea is one example where wild populations are threatened. Synthesising the active ingredients means that plant life is preserved and not exploited.

[ekim]

I'm guessing many people will have been killed from use of some of these herbs because 'practitioners' have no idea how they work or what the active ingredients are and are unable to give correct dosages.

A bit like TGN1412, Aricept and thalidomide then.

[Walter]

A bit like TGN1412, Aricept and thalidomide then.

yeah, that's right 

[Walter]

One huge problem with plant medicines is that a lot are ‘wild cultivated’ ie. taken from their natural habitats. Echinacea is one example where wild populations are threatened. Synthesising the active ingredients means that plant life is preserved and not exploited.

you do realise Echinacea is quack medicine though don't you?

[Udayana]

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/8/07-042820/en/G

Sorry, your link didn't work for me, but without the final "G" I get:

Herbal medicine research and global health: an ethical analysis

Good article.

[Walter]

Sorry, your link didn't work for me, but without the final "G" I get:

Herbal medicine research and global health: an ethical analysis

Good article.

yes , thanks for that

[Sriram]

The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful.  Very often the entire herb including other chemicals and the roughage have a role to play in the cure. It is a package. Isolated chemicals can result in side effects.

For example, isolating the active ingredient in apples and imbibing only that may not be useful. The whole apple along with its skin have a role in promoting good health. In fact, the entire idea of dietary packages (eating certain items in combination with certain other items) prevalent in various communities have a role to play in promoting good health and well being.

In any case, off hand opinions and judgments about 'herbal cures' in general are childish. They stem from the usual 'modern vs traditional' mindset.  Herbal  medicines are not opposed to modern medicine. They are the precursors of modern medicine. We should stop taking political positions for or against either of them. Life did not begin in the 19th or 20th Century.

The OP article is meant precisely to highlight that Science did not begin in the 19th or 20th Centuries. Granted that improved technology has helped in many ways in recent times, but Science is as old as the hills.

[Sebastian Toe]

The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful.  Very often the entire herb including other chemicals and the roughage have a role to play in the cure. It is a package. Isolated chemicals can result in side effects.

And sometimes it is useful otherwise would you recommend that I chew several dozen willow leaves or maybe add in the branch when I have a headache - or take two aspirin and a glass of water?

[ekim]

yeah, that's right 

Glad you agree.  It forms part of iatrogenic diseases.

[jeremyp]

The idea of isolating the 'active ingredient' is not always useful.

Yes but mostly it is. And there is no reason why you can't isolate multiple active ingredients.

For example, isolating the active ingredient in apples and imbibing only that may not be useful. The whole apple along with its skin have a role in promoting good health. In fact, the entire idea of dietary packages (eating certain items in combination with certain other items) prevalent in various communities have a role to play in promoting good health and well being.

I'm not aware that apples have a significant role in the medicinal industry. We eat apples for food and because they taste nice. You could isolate all the active ingredients (i.e. the nutritional ones) and administer them separately, but I bet it wouldn't be as nice as just eating the apple.

In any case, off hand opinions and judgments about 'herbal cures' in general are childish. They stem from the usual 'modern vs traditional' mindset.  Herbal  medicines are not opposed to modern medicine. They are the precursors of modern medicine. We should stop taking political positions for or against either of them. Life did not begin in the 19th or 20th Century.

This is true, but, refining the active ingredients is a step forward because you can omit the poisons and you can control the dose.

[Sriram]

Yes but mostly it is. And there is no reason why you can't isolate multiple active ingredients.
I'm not aware that apples have a significant role in the medicinal industry. We eat apples for food and because they taste nice. You could isolate all the active ingredients (i.e. the nutritional ones) and administer them separately, but I bet it wouldn't be as nice as just eating the apple.
This is true, but, refining the active ingredients is a step forward because you can omit the poisons and you can control the dose.

I mentioned apples as an example of how Nature provides us with nutrition in certain packages. Every part of it has a function and a role. Similarly with medicinal herbs.

The second point is about Science being a part of life all through history.  Though perhaps not named and categorized as such.

No doubt technology has developed very rapidly in recent decades helping medicine and other areas of science to also develop rapidly . But that does not mean we can create artificial and distinct divides between so called 'traditional' and 'modern' aspects of life.  As though they are two different worlds.

Skepticism, suspicion, doubt and scorn for  everything that is traditional, is dysfunctional. Life is a continuum with no discrete breaks. Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.

[ekim]

Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.

That's probably why practitioners use the expression 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine'.  What has often happened is when allopathic treatment has failed an ill person, in desperation they have tried a complementary treatment and found it has appeared to have worked for them.