Indigenous people and Science

[Walter]

That's probably why practitioners use the expression 'complementary medicine' rather than 'alternative medicine'.  What has often happened is when allopathic treatment has failed an ill person, in desperation they have tried a complementary treatment and found it has appeared to have worked for them.

''appeared to have worked for them'    being the significant part of that sentence.

[ekim]

''appeared to have worked for them'    being the significant part of that sentence.

Yes, that's right.  An outside observer only has anecdotal evidence but the individual being treated, if their state of well being is improved, will return for further treatment.  There are no guarantees in medicine.

[Walter]

Yes, that's right.  An outside observer only has anecdotal evidence but the individual being treated, if their state of well being is improved, will return for further treatment.  There are no guarantees in medicine.

there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine . After a course of 'treatment ' she said she felt well again and had a positive view of the future as a result of it . She was wrong , she had deceived herself and if I'm not mistaken she died shortly afterwards.

Just to say , some of the details of the above may be slightly incorrect but the principle remains . If I remember correctly it was part of a channel 4 documentary some time ago.

[ekim]

there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine . After a course of 'treatment ' she said she felt well again and had a positive view of the future as a result of it . She was wrong , she had deceived herself and if I'm not mistaken she died shortly afterwards.

Just to say , some of the details of the above may be slightly incorrect but the principle remains . If I remember correctly it was part of a channel 4 documentary some time ago.

It's difficult to comment without seeing the program or knowing what form the complementary medicine took.  Sometimes a feeling of well being and positivity rather than feeling ill and depressed or negative is all that can be hoped for when the physical body is in a terminal decline.  Most complementary therapies tend to be about restoring the physical and mental balance of an individual.  If that individual is chronically unbalanced then it is likely to take a great deal of time to restore that balance, something the individual may not have.

[Harrowby Hall]

there is a case of a desperate cancer patient who could not be helped any further by modern medicine who turned to alternative medicine.

I suppose there are thousands of such cases occurring all the time, Walter. I know that when someone dear to me was in late stage cancer, all sorts of "alternative" suggestions were made. (One such was shark cartilage - and the suggestion was accompanied by a testimony of how effective it had been on a dog for which veterinary hope had ended.)

The major point missing from Sriram's narrative about the effectiveness of traditional remedies is the thousands - or possibly millions - of corpses belonging to those who sampled berries from the wrong bush.

[Nearly Sane]

I am reminded of the estimable John Diamond and his book Snake Oil

[Enki]

I am reminded of the estimable John Diamond and his book Snake Oil

I was just going to mention this, NS. I have it in front of me at the moment. You beat me to it.

[Nearly Sane]

I was just going to mention this, NS. I have it in front of me at the moment. You beat me to it.

It's a great piece of humanity.

[ekim]

I suppose there are thousands of such cases occurring all the time, Walter. I know that when someone dear to me was in late stage cancer, all sorts of "alternative" suggestions were made. (One such was shark cartilage - and the suggestion was accompanied by a testimony of how effective it had been on a dog for which veterinary hope had ended.)

The major point missing from Sriram's narrative about the effectiveness of traditional remedies is the thousands - or possibly millions - of corpses belonging to those who sampled berries from the wrong bush.

Perhaps in India they don't have the inclination to experiment on animals first, not that that is a 100% safeguard, remembering Opren - the anti-rheumatic drug - which was reported as killing 76 people and left seriously ill three and a half thousand others.

[jeremyp]

I mentioned apples as an example of how Nature provides us with nutrition in certain packages. Every part of it has a function and a role. Similarly with medicinal herbs.

Are you claiming that certain herbs exist only to cure human diseases? What bollocks. If the function of a willow tree was to provide pain relievers to humans, it would have the pain relief chemicals in handy little pouches in regulated doses.

The function of an apple is to spread the seeds of apple trees far and wide. The fact that it tastes nice is a happy byproduct of the species' chosen method of dispersal.

The second point is about Science being a part of life all through history.  Though perhaps not named and categorized as such.

No doubt technology has developed very rapidly in recent decades helping medicine and other areas of science to also develop rapidly . But that does not mean we can create artificial and distinct divides between so called 'traditional' and 'modern' aspects of life.  As though they are two different worlds.

Skepticism, suspicion, doubt and scorn for  everything that is traditional, is dysfunctional. Life is a continuum with no discrete breaks. Integrating traditional practices with modern methods is the way forward.

People don't scorn traditional things. It's just that modern science can take traditional cures and a) find out if they really work or not and b) refine the active ingredients so that they are safer and more controllable.

[jeremyp]

Most complementary therapies tend to be about restoring the physical and mental balance of an individual.  If that individual is chronically unbalanced then it is likely to take a great deal of time to restore that balance, something the individual may not have.

How do you measure this balance?

[Walter]

How do you measure this balance?

chronically?

[ekim]

How do you measure this balance?

If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally.  To answer Walter's question, some people do measure their treatment chronically and get upset if any treatment does not produce results in a short time.

[Walter]

If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally.  To answer Walter's question, some people do measure their treatment chronically and get upset if any treatment does not produce results in a short time.

don't think your critical thinking skills are firing on all cylinders ,ekim!

[Sriram]

Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely  to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully).  That is a plus going forward!   

[ekim]

don't think your critical thinking skills are firing on all cylinders ,ekim!

Explain.

[Walter]

Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely  to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully).  That is a plus going forward!   

eh?

[Walter]

Explain.

you need to use some specific measurable terms rather than 'wellbeing' and 'harmony' otherwise its just gibberish .

[jeremyp]

If I were being treated, I would measure it upon me by the degree of well being and harmony I am experiencing both physically and mentally.

How would you assess those degrees and how do you compare the mental degree with the physical degree.

[Maeght]

Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely  to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully).  That is a plus going forward!   

Can't really see anyone on here being blind and blinkered, only displaying a health skepticism (if you excuse the pun).

[Sebastian Toe]

Anyway guys....thankfully your grandchildren are not likely  to be as blind and blinkered as most of you are. They are likely to have greater exposure and wider experiences in today's world (hopefully).  That is a plus going forward!   

As long as they are not super gullible and take every video on YouTube which claims to show spirits ,as true. I'll be happy.

[ekim]

you need to use some specific measurable terms rather than 'wellbeing' and 'harmony' otherwise its just gibberish .

I don't need specific measurable terms.  I know when I am feeling well or feeling ill or just below par or in high spirits etc.

[ekim]

How would you assess those degrees and how do you compare the mental degree with the physical degree.

I'm not sure that 'assess' is a word I would use upon myself but as regards the mental state I would be aware if I was mentally agitated or lethargic or in a state of harmonious calm between the two.  As regards the physical state I would be aware of the degree of the body's function/dysfunction or the presence/absence of pain.  I don't know if I am answering your question but if not perhaps you could rephrase it.

[Walter]

I don't need specific measurable terms.  I know when I am feeling well or feeling ill or just below par or in high spirits etc.

good for you but how would you propose measuring other peoples experience based on how you 'feel'?

[ekim]

good for you but how would you propose measuring other peoples experience based on how you 'feel'?

If you look at what I said originally I prefaced it with 'If I were being treated'.  You are now changing the question to 'me measuring other people'.  To answer this, I would assume that others are capable of being aware of their own physical or mental condition before and after treatment based upon how they 'feel'.  Isn't this what fills doctors' surgeries or causes a patient to ask for treatment in the first place?