Author Topic: Omnipotence  (Read 38037 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #125 on: November 14, 2017, 10:05:39 AM »
Copied from the "If God Exists?" discussion.

L’Eau,

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I answered your adolescent sarcasm about omnipotence much more fully than it deserved, two or three times, but you were determined not to understand what I was saying, so I gave up.

Except of course none of that’s – ooh, what’s the word I’m trying to think of here? Oh yeah, true.

What actually happened was that you posited a notion that allows a space for “God” to co-exist with “evil” by suggesting that one of the “omnis” – omnipotence – was only theoretically rather than actually true.

I explained to you (neither adolescently nor sarcastically) that you’d fallen foul of two logical fallacies. First, the fallacy of special pleading: you took a specific claim (omnipotence) and diluted it to “theoretical” while ignoring the problem that you’d thereby fundamentally re-defined what “omnipotence” actually means.

Second, the fallacy of arbitrariness. You picked one of the omnis (apparently at random) to dilute, when you could equally have done the same with any of the others (or with a combination of them) and also created a space for evil to hide in.

Since then you’ve been entirely unwilling or unable to address the problems you’ve given yourself, preferring instead first silence and now insult.

Look, it’s simple enough. If you’re feeling upset that a cherished notion has been undone but so out of your depth that you can’t process it just say so. There are people here who readily will help you with the basics of how logic and argument work, and moreover you’ll be better equipped to deal with the world once you do grasp it.

Your actual response though does you no credit.   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2017, 10:15:43 AM »


Look, it’s simple enough. If you’re feeling upset that a cherished notion has been undone but so out of your depth that you can’t process it just say so. There are people here who readily will help you with the basics of how logic and argument work, and moreover you’ll be better equipped to deal with the world once you do grasp it.

I think your mistaking a site that can tell you the basics of how logic and argument with one which believes that proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe is different from proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe!

Walter

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2017, 10:24:02 AM »
I think your mistaking a site that can tell you the basics of how logic and argument with one which believes that proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe is different from proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe!
Six times, yep , six freekin times I've read that and still ,nope , give me a clue.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2017, 10:31:17 AM »
Vlad,

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I think your mistaking a site that can tell you the basics of how logic and argument with one which believes that proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe is different from proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe!

No-one has said that.

But you knew that already didn’t you. 
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »
Walter,

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Six times, yep , six freekin times I've read that and still ,nope , give me a clue.

It’s a lie he keeps returning to in the hope that no-one notices the lie part.

Neil de Grasse Tyson posited a conjecture about a universe that’s simulated by a creator. Vlad then corrupts that into meaning theology – ie, a positive claim (not just a conjecture) about the (not just “a”) creator of the (not just “a”) universe.

What he then does is to pretend the fundamental differences don't exist by lying about people supposedly saying two identical things (the NdGT version repeated) are different.

Why he bothers with his trolling is anyone’s guess, but there it is nonetheless. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 11:20:04 AM by bluehillside »
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Stranger

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2017, 11:03:40 AM »
I think your mistaking a site that can tell you the basics of how logic and argument with one which believes that proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe is different from proposing a creator of a universe who is independent of that universe!

Seriously? You still going on about all universe creators being gods?

There is a difference between proposing a god who is described by all sorts of characteristics, one of which is the creation of the universe and proposing that a (simulated) universe would have some sort of intelligent creator or creators.

It is (to the extent it makes any sense at all) an affirming the consequent fallacy.

If something is a god, then it creates a universe.
X creates a universe.
Therefore, X is a god.


cf. (from the link)

If someone owns Fort Knox, then he is rich.
Bill Gates is rich.
Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox.


Get it?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #131 on: November 14, 2017, 11:38:50 AM »
Seriously? You still going on about all universe creators being gods?

There is a difference between proposing a god who is described by all sorts of characteristics, one of which is the creation of the universe and proposing that a (simulated) universe would have some sort of intelligent creator or creators.

It is (to the extent it makes any sense at all) an affirming the consequent fallacy.

If something is a god, then it creates a universe.
X creates a universe.
Therefore, X is a god.


cf. (from the link)

If someone owns Fort Knox, then he is rich.
Bill Gates is rich.
Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox.


Get it?
An intelligent creator who creates a universe is god of that universe
No therefores involved.

Just like Bill Gates owns or owned Microsoft.

Savvy?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2017, 11:45:59 AM »
Vlad,

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An intelligent creator who creates a universe is god of that universe

Only if you so corrupt the word "God" to include, say, naturalistic advanced aliens, and only if you're content for this "god" to need to be only a parochial one confined to "a" universe, and only if you're indifferent to whether or not this god is itself merely part of simulated universe of which it's not aware. 

None of these things are what theology claims though.

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No therefores involved.

Just like Bill Gates owns or owned Microsoft.

The illogic of affirming the consequent has escaped you again.

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Savvy?

Do you?
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 11:52:22 AM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #133 on: November 14, 2017, 12:10:27 PM »
Vlad,

Only if you so corrupt the word "God" to include, say, naturalistic advanced aliens, and only if you're content for this "god" to need to be only a parochial one confined to "a" universe, and only if you're indifferent to whether or not this god is itself merely part of simulated universe of which it's not aware. 

None of these things are what theology claims though.

The illogic of affirming the consequent has escaped you again.

Do you?
Stranger I believe made several faux pas not least about talking about the inability to argue a multifaceted subject like god without falling foul of affirming the consequent. He has no problem though arguing an Intelligent creator........that's two facets for starters.

It looks to me like mere special pleading on his part.

Another one is identifying Bill Gates. The identity of the God I talk about is not identified in the same way. The intelligent creator is God of the universe it creates just like Bill Gates is the owner of what he owns.

Stranger

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #134 on: November 14, 2017, 12:16:17 PM »
An intelligent creator who creates a universe is god of that universe
No therefores involved.

I think I may have overestimated your intelligence in thinking that you might be even trying to use logic. It's actually just a sad, rather childish attempt to appropriate an speculation that has nothing whatsoever to do with theism.

Can you cite a single source that defines 'god' as "any intelligent agency at all that creates any sort of universe (real or simulated)"?

Are teams of coders who write games, gods of the 'universe' in the game?

If I set up a 'universe' in the Game of Life am I a god?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #135 on: November 14, 2017, 12:23:13 PM »


Can you cite a single source that defines 'god' as "any intelligent agency at all that creates any sort of universe (real or simulated)"?

What? Are you serious?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #136 on: November 14, 2017, 12:23:53 PM »
Vlad,

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Stranger I believe made several faux pas not least about talking about the inability to argue a multifaceted subject like god without falling foul of affirming the consequent.

He said no such thing. What he actually said was that you had attempted it. That tells you nothing about any other arguments you may have for “a mulitfacted subject like god” that don’t fall fould of arguing the consequent.

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He has no problem though arguing an Intelligent creator........that's two facets for starters.

No it isn’t. An intelligent creator (of a universe) is the NdGT conjecture. Theology though entails a positive claim about the intelligent creator of the universe – a very different matter.

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It looks to me like mere special pleading on his part.

Presumably because you don’t understand “special pleading” either.

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Another one…

You can’t have another one when you don’t have a first one.

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…is identifying Bill Gates. The identity of the God I talk about is not identified in the same way. The intelligent creator is God of the universe it creates just like Bill Gates is the owner of what he owns.

You’ve missed the point entirely. Bill Gates was used just to populate an explanation of affirming the consequent. Whether or not, “”The identity of the God I talk about is not identified in the same way” is irrelevant for that purpose.
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Stranger

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #137 on: November 14, 2017, 12:28:20 PM »
Stranger I believe made several faux pas not least about talking about the inability to argue a multifaceted subject like god without falling foul of affirming the consequent. He has no problem though arguing an Intelligent creator........that's two facets for starters.

That's the point! It's just two facets out of many. God has a whole load of characteristics and just two of them are intelligence and universe creation. That doesn't mean that any intelligent universe creator is a god.

Being god has the consequence that you are intelligent and create a universe.
Owing Fort Knox has the consequence of being rich.

Being rich doesn't make you the owner of Fort Knox.
Being intelligent and creating universes doesn't make you god.

And BTW, I have not argued for an intelligent creator.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #138 on: November 14, 2017, 12:29:39 PM »
Vlad,

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What? Are you serious?

Of course he is. You have now so re-defined "god" that it includes how your cat would think of you.

It's up to you really. If your theology actually means, "I have a conjecture about a god that could be naturalistic, that could long since have died or disappeared, that could be a tiny cog in a much larger universe or universes, that could itself just be a simulation of a different creator entirely" etc it'd be a pretty whacky version of theology that's uniquely yours I'd have though but fair enough if it works for you.         
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 12:33:48 PM by bluehillside »
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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #139 on: November 14, 2017, 12:35:05 PM »
What? Are you serious?

I'll take that as a 'no'...
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #140 on: November 14, 2017, 12:40:10 PM »
Some,

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That's the point! It's just two facets out of many. God has a whole load of characteristics and just two of them are intelligence and universe creation. That doesn't mean that any intelligent universe creator is a god.

Being god has the consequence that you are intelligent and create a universe.
Owing Fort Knox has the consequence of being rich.

Being rich doesn't make you the owner of Fort Knox.
Being intelligent and creating universes doesn't make you god.

Quite. I've explained to him the difference between necessary and sufficient several times now, but it's fallen on deaf ears.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2017, 12:41:50 PM »
I'll take that as a 'no'...
I suggest you consider Wikipedia creator deities and revisit the fact that you and your ilk have been fighting creationism in all its forms which renders you a bit like it would be if Churchill had started arguing half way through WW2 that Adolf wasn't a Naaaaazzzzi
You might also like to revisit the verdict of PZ Myers who categorises this with intelligent design and we know the effort went in to showing that was just back door creationism.

I find the request astounding.Mind you theists everywhere must be laughing their socks off.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #142 on: November 14, 2017, 12:48:26 PM »

And BTW, I have not argued for an intelligent creator.
Well then you are in the wrong argument.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #143 on: November 14, 2017, 12:50:24 PM »
Vlad,

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I suggest you consider Wikipedia creator deities and revisit the fact that you and your ilk have been fighting creationism in all its forms which renders you a bit like it would be if Churchill had started arguing half way through WW2 that Adolf wasn't a Naaaaazzzzi

Utter gibberish.
 
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You might also like to revisit the verdict of PZ Myers who categorises this with intelligent design and we know the effort went in to showing that was just back door creationism.

You've been corrected about this several times now. Why are you still lying about it?

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I find the request astounding.

And non-existent.

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Mind you theists everywhere must be laughing their socks off.

Only if they're as dimly irrational as you are. It might surprise you though to know that not all of them are.
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God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #144 on: November 14, 2017, 12:57:15 PM »
Hillside.
You argue that a proposal of a universe with an intelligent creator is not only not theology but it is naturalism!



bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2017, 01:02:14 PM »
Vlad,

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You argue that a proposal of a universe with an intelligent creator is not only not theology...

Actually that it's not sufficient for theology. This simple point really has got you foxed hasn't it.

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...but it is naturalism!

Wrong again - the point rather is that naturalism is all that's necessary for the SU conjecture.
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Stranger

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #146 on: November 14, 2017, 01:03:45 PM »
I suggest you consider Wikipedia creator deities...

I didn't ask you to cite a definition of god that includes intelligent creation, I asked for source that "defines 'god' as 'any intelligent agency at all that creates any sort of universe (real or simulated)'".

Here is another example, from affirming the consequent:

If I have the flu, then I have a sore throat.
I have a sore throat.
Therefore, I have the flu.


It's like I asked you for a source that defined the flu (cf. god) as 'a sore throat' (cf. intelligent creation) and you gave me some that say that having the flu includes having a sore throat.

Is any of this sinking in...?

How about stopping to think before replying?
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Stranger

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2017, 01:17:36 PM »
Well then you are in the wrong argument.

I'm arguing that a conjecture about simulated universes has nothing to do with theism - that is not the same as arguing for said conjecture.

To you, logic is just something that bothers other people, isn't it?      ::)
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Sebastian Toe

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #148 on: November 14, 2017, 02:07:29 PM »

How about stopping to think before replying?
..but that would involve him a) stopping (possible) and b) thinking (unlikely).
You are sooo cruel!
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Omnipotence
« Reply #149 on: November 14, 2017, 02:20:11 PM »
Vlad,

Actually that it's not sufficient for theology. This simple point really has got you foxed hasn't it.

Wrong again - the point rather is that naturalism is all that's necessary for the SU conjecture.
I'm afraid as has been pointed out that Bostroms suggestion of windows by which the creator communicates brings further into theistic territory.

The conjecture by itself is apart from anything else sufficient for deism.
The conclusion is therefore that you guys are indulging in doublethink and special pleading.

The conjecture says nothing further about the nature of the creator and so is wrong to say we can think of a teenager in a basement but nothing much more significant or sophisticated but hey having passed over into Goddism you've had your first taste of making God in your own image.