Author Topic: It's OK to to try and have sex with a 14 year old because Joseph and Mary...  (Read 13449 times)

Sriram

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Certainly not at 14 or younger.

My point however was that you seemed not to be considering emotional or mental maturity only sexual maturity and that sohould not be the main consideration.


Ah...now that's a new number....14!  Why 14 and why not 13?

How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature? 

Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?   
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 12:56:59 PM by Sriram »

Owlswing

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Ah...now that's a new number....14!  Why 14 and why not 13?

How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature? 

Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?

Words fail me - mainly because the words that I think apply to your post would not only get me modded but banned!
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Maeght

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Ah...now that's a new number....14!  Why 14 and why not 13?

Look at the thread title Sriram!

Quote
How do you judge mental and emotional maturity? What is the criterion? At what age do people become mentally and emotionally mature? 

Should all sexual activity be banned for 13- 14 year olds (without marriage)....upto 18 year olds?

Society makes judgements on suitable ages for various activities based on many criteria. Sexual maturity is not one which should be the deciding factor when it comes to the age of consent. If you think that should be the deciding factor then I think you need to think again.

Rhiannon

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Being able to conceive doesn’t indicate ideal sexual maturity anyway. Babies born to teens are more likely to be premature and low birth weight. Teen mothers are more likely to have anaemia and hypertension. And in very young bodies that are still growing the body has not yet reached the ideal developmental stage for giving birth. It’s a nonsense.

Maeght

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Being able to conceive doesn’t indicate ideal sexual maturity anyway. Babies born to teens are more likely to be premature and low birth weight. Teen mothers are more likely to have anaemia and hypertension. And in very young bodies that are still growing the body has not yet reached the ideal developmental stage for giving birth. It’s a nonsense.

Indeed.

floo

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And when are all people emotionally and mentally mature.....? At 18, 20, 25. 30, 50, 80???

Why 18...why not 16 or 15 or 20?

16 is rather young, even though it is legal to marry at that age, but any younger is too young imo. But you had stated a child should be able to get married when they reached puberty, and as I pointed out that can be as young as 10.

Rhiannon

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What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?!  That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's. 

It is a different matter that society today has fixed 18 years as the majority age for most things, including marriage. But nothing immoral about marrying a girl or boy who is post puberty. 18 is just an arbitrary age with no biological basis.

People who reach puberty are not men and women. They are children - average age 10-11 for girls and 11-12 for boys. My son is at this stage and spends his time watching Star Wars and playing footie, not breadwinning or changing nappies. This is because he is a child and not an adult.

What makes you assume that people who marry in their twenties, thirties, even their forties have spent the previous years sleeping around, and if they actually have what is the problem with that?

Robbie

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sririam:- "What is wrong with men and women getting married as soon as they attain puberty?!  That is the most natural thing I would say. Better than sleeping around for 15 years and then getting married to someone in the late 20's."

No I would say it is better to "sleep around" for fifteen years and marry in late twenties. Maybe my idea of 'sleeping around' is different to yours, I wouldn't call having a handful of relationships "sleeping around", I'd say that was normal.

However I presume you are not advocating marriage at puberty but putting it forward as an argument in debate, which frequently happens on here about all sorts of issues; you've had plenty of response and the general consensus is that most are not physically or emotionally mature enough for a committed relationship at puberty.  (Before anyone else says it, I know some never are sufficiently emotionally mature in that way!)

Regarding the legal age of marriage with parental consent & age of consent, 16 seems about right to me. Nothing is perfect but laws are made to protect us all.  There was a time when children of 'noble houses' & the very wealthy were married off, playing in eachother's houses until they were old enough to consummate, often widowed before their teens! They had no choice in the matter.  The age of consent here is 16 (I believe it is the same in India), but in the 19C it was thirteen. Do we want to see schoolkids marrying? I don't think so, there's time enough for that and plenty of other things to be doing.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 04:24:12 PM by Robbie »
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Sassy

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Just eh?


https://www.yahoo.com/news/roy-moore-ally-compares-underage-231500999.html
You remember the old topics where we said they would try and change the laws for the age of consent etc.

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Shaker

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You remember the old topics where we said they would try and change the laws for the age of consent etc.
No, which topics?
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Harrowby Hall

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Quote from: Owlswing

To allow child marriage is a paedophile's Utopia - especialy if you add in today's quicky divorces!

Quote from: Floo
I am sure a lot of paedophiles would agree with Sriram's post! >:( :o


The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia.  Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 07:10:30 PM by Harrowby Hall »
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Shaker

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The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia.  Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.
Technically correct - but how many people know the precise terms? And what difference does it really make in any case?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Harrowby Hall

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Technically correct - but how many people know the precise terms? And what difference does it really make in any case?

It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.

It indicates that contributors understand what they are writing about: young people who are sexually mature but have not reached full physical maturity. That is what this thread is about.
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Shaker

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It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.
Or rather vice versa, perhaps.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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It makes a lot of difference. Sloppy use of English results in sloppy thinking.

It indicates that contributors understand what they are writing about: young people who are sexually mature but have not reached full physical maturity. That is what this thread is about.

As it happens I agree with this. My feeling is that understanding is important in order to protect young people adequately.

Sriram

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Hi everyone,

This thread is about marrying a 14 year old.  Most people today think of a 14 year old as a child. But does this have any biological basis or is it just a recent cultural norm?!

1. The concept of a 'Major' is a fairly recent one. This was required for voting purposes as also for legal purposes of signing documents and cheques, driving and so on. Some age had to be fixed after which a person could be considered an adult and a suitable age was fixed in each country. This has changed significantly over the decades in different countries. Even today it is quite different in different countries and communities, ranging from 16 to 21.

2. Many countries have adopted the same legal Major age for purposes of marriage also. Some countries have adopted a different age for marriage as compared to the legal age of maturity for other purposes. 

3. But the fact remains that the Major age (in any country) has no biological basis and is purely arbitrary. It would be absurd to think that a person is mature enough for marriage at 18 years in England but the same person becomes mature at 16 in Scotland and only at 21 in Egypt. 

4. The only true and medically ascertainable method of distinguishing between an adult and a child is puberty. It is puberty during which the body and mind of a person changes  significantly, at whatever age it may happen in different people.

5. Puberty is when a person becomes capable of sexual activity, marriage and bearing children. Sex with a post pubescent  person is not pedophilia as some people have clarified above.

6. The argument about mental and emotional maturity is vague and there is no clear measurable way of ascertaining when a person is mentally and emotionally mature. Many people in their late 20's and 30's or even much later can be emotionally unstable. Many people below 18 or 16 can be very mature emotionally.  It depends on the person and their upbringing.

7. People in earlier centuries lived under harsh and demanding conditions because of which they matured much earlier than the present day youngsters do. Therefore a person of 14, if post pubescent, would have been perfectly capable of marrying, bearing children and taking care of herself at that age. People were also much more socially close knit than today and were helped by parents and relatives to manage children. You cannot sit on judgement on such people just because you happen to have a different norm today in your country. I am sure many of your grandparents and great grandparents were well below the marriageable age of today when they married in the early 1900's or late 1800's.

8. Therefore who we consider as a 'Child' is not as clear cut and definitive as some of you seem to think. It differs from country to country and from time to time. As far as emotional maturity is concerned it differs from person to person and no specific age can be fixed..... 

9. Another point I wish to make is about sexual activity outside marriage. Leaving the legal aspect aside, if some of you think a girl or boy at say 14 can have sexual relations with several partners, with all its associated problems of diseases, contraception, pregnancy, abortion, rejection, emotional difficulties and so on....why is marriage such a big problem?   

Cheers.

Sriram



Harrowby Hall

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Sriram

Quote
The only true and medically ascertainable method of distinguishing between an adult and a child is puberty. It is puberty during which the body and mind of a person changes  significantly, at whatever age it may happen in different people.

This is not correct. it is far from correct.

It may be used as an excuse for traditional social/cultural behaviour, but it does not reflect physiological reality.

Puberty is only one of several developmental events/processes which contribute to maturity and adulthood. Skeletal growth continues for a number of years beyond puberty. And as for brain development, it continues until the early 20s.

Puberty is merely a stage along the pathway to adulthood
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floo

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The context of this discussion is NOT paedophilia but hebephilia.  Paedophilia is sexual interest in prepubescent children.

Ok fine, but an adult who preys on underage kids is still considered a pervert.

Sriram

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Sriram

This is not correct. it is far from correct.

It may be used as an excuse for traditional social/cultural behaviour, but it does not reflect physiological reality.

Puberty is only one of several developmental events/processes which contribute to maturity and adulthood. Skeletal growth continues for a number of years beyond puberty. And as for brain development, it continues until the early 20s.

Puberty is merely a stage along the pathway to adulthood


Great! So what according to you is the right age to demarcate adulthood and why?

trippymonkey

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Sriram bhaiya, do you really believe there's a SINGLE age for ALL kids ???

Nearly Sane

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Fascinating as much of this discussion has been I'm struggling to see what relevance much of it, or the original 'defence' of it was ok for Joseph and Mary has to the alleged sexual assault of a 14 year old by a 32 year old man (at the time) who is standing for election.

Owlswing

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Great! So what according to you is the right age to demarcate adulthood and why?

How many times do you have to be told, advised, (insert other synonyms as appropriate) before you understand that current medical and psychological opinion is that there IS NO ONE AGE.


Youir arguments so far appear to me, and I am, by family history, biased, to be a defence of paedophiles and hebephiles

Whatever it is, your attitude disgusts me beyond my ability to measure it! 

« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 12:21:06 PM by Owlswing »
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Maeght

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Has Sriram said there is one age? He seems rather to be using puberty as the criteria, not age.

Owlswing

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Has Sriram said there is one age? He seems rather to be using puberty as the criteria, not age.


Considering the vast range of ages at which puberty can strike, at least part of his argument represents, to me, a defence of adults having sex with children!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Maeght

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Considering the vast range of ages at which puberty can strike, at least part of his argument represents, to me, a defence of adults having sex with children!

Sure. But best be clear on what Sriram is actually saying. Puberty should not be the main criteria and an age limit has to be set based on the norm regarding mental, physical and emotional maturity.