It's OK to to try and have sex with a 14 year old because Joseph and Mary...

[Sriram]

And the dictionary definition of a child is.......

***********
British Dictionary definitions for child

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child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children

1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty

***********

No age is specified.

[Nearly Sane]

And the dictionary definition of a child is.......

***********
British Dictionary definitions for child

Expand

child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children

1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty

***********

No age is specified.

And the definition of an adult is one that is fully grown. What have either of those got to do with a 32 year old man  allegedly sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl and being fit to stand for office on the basis of 'well, Joseph and Mary...'?

[floo]

And the dictionary definition of a child is.......

***********
British Dictionary definitions for child

Expand

child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children

1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty

***********

No age is specified.

So are you saying it is ok for an adult to have sex with a ten year old who has gone through puberty?

[Sriram]

All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.

[floo]

All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.

That wasn't clear from your posts.

[Nearly Sane]

All my comments were with reference to Joseph and Mary and not with reference to the senate candidate.

So if Joseph was 32 and offered a nice dowry for Mary , you would think that was ok if her parents went, great thanks, that will buy us a new donkey, and they had a quick check that she had menstruated at the age of 11? Even though child birth might not be what her body was physically prepared for or she was mentally capable of consenting to?

[Owlswing]

And the dictionary definition of a child is.......

***********
British Dictionary definitions for child

Expand

child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children

1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty

***********

No age is specified.

Have you checked on information regarding the death rate in childbirth of pre-teen mothers at the time?

Are you 100% certain that a 12/13/14 year old's pelvis is sufficiently developed to handle the stress of a baby passing through it!

Or are you promoting the scenario that all such babies be born via ceasarian (sic) des[pite the physical trauma of that particular surgical procedure even on a grown woman.

Also why has it taken about 70 posts on this topic for you to restrict your support for adults having sex with children to the biblical situaltion?

 

[Nearly Sane]

#MeAt14


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41967461

[Owlswing]

#MeAt14


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-41967461

How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html

Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.

[Nearly Sane]

How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html

Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.

Absolutely, I agree

[jeremyp]

Fascinating as much of this discussion has been I'm struggling to see what relevance much of it, or the original 'defence' of it was ok for Joseph and Mary has to the alleged sexual assault of a 14 year old by a 32 year old man (at the time) who is standing for election.

I think it's been shown that the original 'defence' was a pile of dingos' kidneys. The defence fails because

• It's pure speculation that Mary was only 14 at the time she got married to Joseph
• We should be judging people by the moral standards of our age, not the first century Roman world.
• Sexual assault is different to getting married. The distinction is made explicit in the gospels by Luke who writes that Joseph didn't have sex with Mary until after Jesus was born.

There are probably other good reasons, but those will do for now.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

How many "children", of any age, these days are ddressed as children and not as miniature adults thanks to the fashion industry!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3482572/Valentino-risks-outrage-sending-young-looking-model-catwalk-nipples-exposed-Paris-Fashion-Week.html

Sorry it's from the D Fail but the picture says it all.

Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.

You, as a "pagan" should know that, rather than me giving you a lecture!

[Sriram]

I agree with HWB.

We should be clear about what are biological reasons and what are purely cultural reasons. Biological reasons are valid everywhere whereas cultural reasons could change from country to country, community to community and from time to time.

According to the dictionary, a person is a child is only from birth to puberty. After that, they are presumably young men and women.

About a 14 year old not being able to give consent.....that depends on lot of things.

1. Under very harsh living conditions people tend to mature very fast. A 14 year old under such conditions may be perfectly capable of giving consent, getting married and having children. Even young children at 7-8 were expected to work and take up responsibilities. (The teddy hugging, thumb sucking archetype is of recent origin and that too only in rich countries).

2. If 14 year old's cannot give consent, they should be at home under mummy's and daddy's care till they are 18 (or 16 or 21 depending on the country  ).  However that is not what usually happens in liberal western countries.

3. According to statistics, nearly 41% of teens have had sexual intercourse....and perhaps with the full knowledge (and approval or indifference) of the parents.   So...when you say they cannot give consent, what exactly do you mean?  Does it mean that all teens who have sex are criminals and should be charged with rape?   

My point is that there is no consistence at all between the liberal sexual life that most westerners lead and the sudden indignation and wrath at supposed trespasses. 

[Harrowby Hall]

According to the dictionary, a person is a child is only from birth to puberty. After that, they are presumably young men and women.

1  Dictionaries do not define, they describe usage.

2 A person is a child from birth to puberty. Following puberty a person is an adolescent until physical maturity when he or she becomes an adult.

[Sassy]

Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.

It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.

Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.

But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing.  Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.

Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?

[floo]

Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.

It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.

Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.

But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing.  Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.

Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?

Sadly it appears we do!

[Owlswing]

Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.

You, as a "pagan" should know that, rather than me giving you a lecture!

If you are giving me a lecture you might at least get your "facts" right - your lecture, to me, is more like a wind-up!

Paganism did not exist as a religion in the UK until it started to rear its head in 1921 with the publication of Marargaret A Murray's (now totally discredited) "The Witch Cult in Western Europe" in which she set up a theory that witchcraft had existed as an underground pagan religion from the time of the impostiion of Christianity. Her findings were allowed to stand because she was a respected academic, Egyptoligist, despite the fact that most academics were horrified at the way in which she had altered the evidence to fit her theory rather than adjusting her theory to fit the evidence.

It was not until her death in 1963, at the age of 100, that her theory was publicly torn to shreds by academia.

Unfortunately by that time Gerald B Gardner had  formed his Wicca on the basis that it was one of the surviving branches of the pre-historic pagan withcraft religion and published "Witchcraft Today" in 1954.

It was only later, the 1970's, that Gardner's fabrication of his Wiccan history began to also be discredited, although, it must be said, the "Hard Gards" of will still not admit that Gardner made the history of Wicca up - it would be the equivalent of telling Christians that thier God is a drunken, gambling, psychopath. 

Thus . . .

Childhood is a Victorian invention. Before the Industrial Revolution, kids were expected to work as best as they could, as to when they were considered suitable to marry depended upon the particular culture in which they were raised.

. . . has S F A to do with pganism.

[Owlswing]

I agree with HWB.

Of course you do - he is agreeing with you!

That does not make either of you right!

[Sebastian Toe]

And the dictionary definition of a child is.......

***********
British Dictionary definitions for child

Expand

child /tʃaɪld/
noun (pl) children

1. a boy or girl between birth and puberty

***********

No age is specified.

adolescent

adəˈlɛs(ə)nt/

adjective

1.
(of a young person) in the process of developing from a child into an adult.

[Owlswing]

Emotionally, people do not mature with puberty.
There are arguments about going from a child to adulthood.
Discussions about puberty and if it means adulthood and even wisdom and knowledge to make decisions.
The law is the guideline in every country but a child/adult who cannot make an informed decision about a sexual relationship
regardless of puberty needs protecting.

It isn't okay to have sex with a 14 year old. Two fourteen year olds can make mistakes but an adult had no place having sex with a 14 year old whether they have reached puberty or not.

Our ow five penneth means absolutely nothing in the face of the law. You will prosecute an adult but two fourteen year olds would not be prosecuted. That in itself shows that two fourteen years olds are not seen as responsible adults who can make the right decisions. Right or Wrong varies from Country to Country and their age limits.

But unless special needs adults over 18 know what they are doing.  Even 16-18 years old know sex with a person under consensual age is wrong.

Do we really need a discussion to tell us sex with an underage person is wrong?

Put this date in the diary - Sassy, I wholeheartedly agree with you!

[Sriram]

1  Dictionaries do not define, they describe usage.

2 A person is a child from birth to puberty. Following puberty a person is an adolescent until physical maturity when he or she becomes an adult.

Yes...I agree. I think I have written at length about adolescence.

But the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends. 

[Sebastian Toe]

Yes...I agree. I think I have written at length about adolescence.

But the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends.

What law is that?

[Robbie]

... the discussion was about who is a 'child'.....and whether 14 year old's can give consent or not.... and if not why they are allowed, by society and by the Law, to have sex freely with their boy/girl friends.

The law doesn't allow 14 year olds to have sex Sririam, the point is they can't prevent it.  If two kids get caught there isn't much point in prosecuting because no-one would be able to decide on a fitting punishment. No point in locking them up where they will mix with other youngsters who have done far worse.

(Don't go around thinking all 14 year olds are sexually active though because they are not.)

I spoke about this in previous post but the age of consent is there to protect young people from being exploited by adults.  It has to be set somewhere and when 16 was introduced it was deemed to be the appropriate age. There are sixteen year olds who are mature for their years whereas others are still like children but the line was drawn because it fitted the 'average' sixteen year old. 

[Sriram]

The law doesn't allow 14 year olds to have sex Sririam, the point is they can't prevent it.  If two kids get caught there isn't much point in prosecuting because no-one would be able to decide on a fitting punishment. No point in locking them up where they will mix with other youngsters who have done far worse.

(Don't go around thinking all 14 year olds are sexually active though because they are not.)

I spoke about this in previous post but the age of consent is there to protect young people from being exploited by adults.  It has to be set somewhere and when 16 was introduced it was deemed to be the appropriate age. There are sixteen year olds who are mature for their years whereas others are still like children but the line was drawn because it fitted the 'average' sixteen year old.

Robbie....the issue is about consent. If 14 year old cannot give consent, how does society or the Law allow such behavior so freely? Or if they cannot prevent such behavior, why do they contend that 14 year old's cannot consent? It is completely in conflict.

In some countries people below 18 years are not allowed to have sex because they are minors and are not capable of consent. And anyone found having sex with a minor is charged with rape....even if that person is a minor himself.  It is a criminal offence. That stand is more consistent. 

[Harrowby Hall]

Robbie

I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.

In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights".  For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.

India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.


For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.