It's OK to to try and have sex with a 14 year old because Joseph and Mary...

[Robbie]

I get what you are saying Sririam but the law is not perfect.The law-makers and social reformers at the time the age of consent was fixed at 16 in this country did the best they could with the information they had.

This wiki article is quite comprehensive:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

As for those under sixteens who have a sexual relationship I don't see how it can be stopped short of policing them 24/7.

I understand how you feel exasperated that we have a law which is not always enforced but as I said before, the law is primarily to protect kids from adults.

Btw I've just seen an interesting post from HH, who got in just before me, at the bottom of the previous page so am drawing your attention to it.

[Sriram]

My point is that, if people  of 14 or whatever are incapable of consent..then British and other societies are effectively allowing them to get raped on a daily basis through their liberal sexual lifestyle.

Alternatively, if that lifestyle cannot be changed, then saying that minors are incapable of consent is a farce.

[Robbie]

Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.

What would you do Sririam?

[Nearly Sane]

Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.

What would you do Sririam?

That ole devil and the idle hands....

[Robbie]

Idle eh? Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more.

[Harrowby Hall]

Positive healthy excercise .... 

[Owlswing]

Robbie

I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.

In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights".  For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.

India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.


For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.

To my mind that does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it acceptable anywhere in the world in the 21st Century.

[Rhiannon]

My point is that, if people  of 14 or whatever are incapable of consent..then British and other societies are effectively allowing them to get raped on a daily basis through their liberal sexual lifestyle.

Alternatively, if that lifestyle cannot be changed, then saying that minors are incapable of consent is a farce.

You have some very odd ideas.

[Harrowby Hall]

To my mind that does not, in any way, shape, or form, make it acceptable anywhere in the world in the 21st Century.

Are you suggesting that I do think it acceptable?

[Robbie]

Nobody thinks it is acceptable HH nor would want to go back to times when it was accepted (like King John of England marrying Isabella of Angoulême when he was in his forties and she was about twelve).

I'm interested to hear from Sririam how he would propose to plug the gaps in our age of consent law. I really have no ideas.

[Owlswing]

Are you suggesting that I do think it acceptable?

Not you ol' son!

[Sriram]

...and meanwhile, France is thinking of making 13 as the age of consent.  How about that then?!

Once they can give consent for sex they can also give consent for marriage presumably.....IMO.   

[Sriram]

Parents have a big role to play & trying to ensure that kids have plenty to do that interests them (rather than just one thing), and ambition. It's not easy though in this day and age when sex is so widely advertised.

What would you do Sririam?

Robbie,

What would I do about what?  About the conflict between liberal values and the problem with the age of consent?

I have no idea. You must find a suitable solution within your society. But the obvious inconsistency definitely needs to be resolved. 

I mean to say...you can't have a situation can you, where a father says......

"Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely  enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14  by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!"

That would be too much like a split personality...!

[Sriram]

Robbie

I think that we must remember the specific cultural context which must affect the content of Sriram's posts.

In India the age of consent is 18 but there is - in some poorer areas - a tradition of child brides. I understand that there have been prosecutions of rape made against men who have married girls aged less than 18 and who have insisted on their "conjugal rights".  For various reasons, some probably unlawful, in remote rural areas the unlawful traditional practices continue without authorities being aware.

India is a very large country with a huge population and it must be extremely difficult in many cases to monitor and police "traditional" thinking. Its legal framework is not only the consequence of a large variety of cultural and religious traditions but also of British rule which frequently attempted to impose yet other cultural values for about 100 years.


For information see www.girlsnotbrides.org and there is also a Wikipedia entry.

HH....you really must do something about your 'India' paranoia...! 

Be that as it may....India lives in many centuries at the same time. There are some who still live in the Vedic times...some who live in the medieval times and some who are fairly modern... and some who are even more liberal than the liberal western societies themselves.   There is a great mix of values, lifestyles and customs.....and as you say, there are 1.3 billion people!   

Yes... no doubt, in India there is one section of traditional society that feels that people should get married once they attain puberty (in common with other traditional societies world wide).  This is in conflict with the law that says that girls cannot get married before 18 years of age and boys before 21.

But, as you might perhaps notice..,.this is about marriage... and is a well known conflict between traditional lifestyles and secular legal issues.  Nothing new. 

However, there is absolutely no part of society...neither the traditional one nor the Legal one... that  tolerates people having sex freely below the age of majority.  Any person found having sex with an underage girl is charged with rape...period!   No conflict at all! 

No one encourages free sex on the one hand and shouts 'RAPE' on the other!   

 

[Owlswing]

HH....you really must do something about your 'India' paranoia...! 

Be that as it may....India lives in many centuries at the same time. There are some who still live in the Vedic times...some who live in the medieval times and some who are fairly modern... and some who are even more liberal than the liberal western societies themselves.   There is a great mix of values, lifestyles and customs.....and as you say, there are 1.3 billion people!   

Yes... no doubt, in India there is one section of traditional society that feels that people should get married once they attain puberty (in common with other traditional societies world wide).  This is in conflict with the law that says that girls cannot get married before 18 years of age and boys before 21.

But, as you might perhaps notice..,.this is about marriage... and is a well known conflict between traditional lifestyles and secular legal issues.  Nothing new. 

However, there is absolutely no part of society...neither the traditional one nor the Legal one... that  tolerates people having sex freely below the age of majority.  Any person found having sex with an underage girl is charged with rape...period!   No conflict at all! 

No one encourages free sex on the one hand and shouts 'RAPE' on the other!   

Quite clearly they do when rape is used as a legally imposed punishment!

[Robbie]

Sririam (Good Morning), I get the impression that you believe our society is totally decadent.  I can assure you NO-ONE would want their 14 year old to be having sex, too much too soon. If 14 year olds do it, it isn't with approval - but the vast majority don't. We hear about the ones that do in the media.

No father would say:-
""Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely  enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14  by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!""

That's a totally fictitious scenario. We're not as liberal as you seem to think.

It's true that sex with a person under 16 is statutory rape but the difficulty is what to do if there are two 14 year olds committing statutory rape with eachother. Not much point in locking up two kids, nor would it be a good idea for them to marry at that age even if it was legal. There is the dilemma.

The only answer is education and to fire youngsters up with some ambition so they don't mess up their lives before they've even left school.

I didn't know France was considering lowering the age of consent to 13. Seems wrong to me, a lot of 13 year olds haven't even reached puberty but that is France's business.

You seem cross with us Sririam, I am sad you have such a poor opinion. I can assure you there is plenty to like about  growing up & living here for most people.

[Sriram]

Sririam (Good Morning), I get the impression that you believe our society is totally decadent.  I can assure you NO-ONE would want their 14 year old to be having sex, too much too soon. If 14 year olds do it, it isn't with approval - but the vast majority don't. We hear about the ones that do in the media.

No father would say:-
""Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely  enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14  by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!""

That's a totally fictitious scenario. We're not as liberal as you seem to think.

It's true that sex with a person under 16 is statutory rape but the difficulty is what to do if there are two 14 year olds committing statutory rape with eachother. Not much point in locking up two kids, nor would it be a good idea for them to marry at that age even if it was legal. There is the dilemma.

The only answer is education and to fire youngsters up with some ambition so they don't mess up their lives before they've even left school.

I didn't know France was considering lowering the age of consent to 13. Seems wrong to me, a lot of 13 year olds haven't even reached puberty but that is France's business.

You seem cross with us Sririam, I am sad you have such a poor opinion. I can assure you there is plenty to like about  growing up & living here for most people.

Cross with you...? No...no of course not! Whatever gave you that idea?! 

I have great respect and liking for Britain and even America (don't care much for France really).   But there are obvious inconsistencies that need to be pointed out.  Every society thinks it is perfect and doing everything right....and everyone else is wrong.  That is true even in India ...(but we fight so much among ourselves due to the wide lifestyle differences...that we don't need anyone else).

[Sriram]

For info...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4914784/french-age-of-consent-may-be-reduced-to-13-years-old-after-courts-rule-two-11-year-old-girls-werent-raped/

**********

French age of consent may be reduced to 13 YEARS OLD after courts rule two 11-year-old girls weren’t raped

FRANCE is considering a change to the laws surrounding sexual consent after two men were acquitted of raping two 11 year old girls.

Justice Minister Nicole Belloubet today said that the age of just 13 was now a "limit that is worth considering" by law makers.

However, she made it clear she believed judges should still assess whether someone was old enough to give consent on a case-by-case basis.

The move comes after the French courts twice refused to prosecute grown men for rape after they had sex with 11-year-olds because authorities couldn't prove coercion.

It is already illegal in France to have sex with under 15s, but rape charges can only be brought if prosecutors can prove the act was non-consensual.

***********

[Robbie]

We certainly don't believe our society is perfect Sririam!

As for France, I don't see how grown men having sex with 11 year olds is anything but rape.
I hope they don't lower the age of consent.

[Gordon]

I mean to say...you can't have a situation can you, where a father says......

"Oh..my daughter is 14 already...(my my, how fast they grow)... and her hormones are firing (wink ...wink)...so she must surely  enjoy her youth like everyone else. Let her have fun with the boys but make sure you use those latex thingies ....you know what I mean........(chuckle chuckle)" ... ...and then suddenly turn around and thunder..." "She is only 14  by Jove!....she certainly cannot give consent for sex or any such rubbish.....CERTAINLY NOT!!"

That would be too much like a split personality...!

I don't know if you have daughters Sriram: I have two (both adults now), and also two grand-daughters - and the scenario you outline above  isn't something I recognise ever thinking as a father of daughters during their teenage years, and I doubt that any other father of teenage daughters would think like this.

In fact the dichotomy you portray seems perverse enough to read like an unpleasant pastiche of fatherhood in a draft script of 'Carry On Parenting': to be voiced by the likes of Sid James.

[Harrowby Hall]

First of all, a couple of points to be cleared up.

Robbie - You have been watching too much American television. There is no such concept in English Law as "statutory rape".

Sriram - I was trying very hard to be sympathetic to the situation in India. I have no "paranoia" about India, I am very concious of the problems of governing such a large and culturally diverse country - and I acknowledge the buggeration factor resulting from the British raj.

May I open up this discussion a little?

For millennia, in very many cultures and religions, women have been considered the property of men, intellectually and physically inferior to men, breeding machines and domestic slaves. We now live in more liberal times when the total humanity of women, when their legal equality with men, and the right to conduct their own lives as they see fit are becoming generally accepted.

One of the things that must be accepted is that women (should) have total autonomy over their own bodies. This applies from puberty onwards and it also applies in marriage. The purpose of an age of consent is to ensure that a sexually mature, but still growing, young woman is protected from predatory (or opportunistic) men as well as from a (probably) incomplete understanding of the biological impulses and pressures she may be feeling. When she does achieve the appropriate age, her body is hers to do with what she wants. I think that it is wrong to consider an age of consent simply as a barrier erected to keep men away.

This all implies that pubescent (and prepubescent) girls and boys should receive appropriate and comprehensive education in personal development. It should be free from restrictive cultural and religious influences - which typically are concerned with restricting the roles and activities of women.

[Nearly Sane]

Might be worth noting that there is a concept of statutory rape in the UK  - for England and  Wales since  Sexual Offences Act 2003, and for Scotland since Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009. It uses the same split that was mentioned as being considered by the French - 13. It is not an age of consent as such since sex with someone under the age of 16 by someone older than it is a sexual offence.

ETA - the French laws regard it as rape if there is no consent. there isn't an age at which there is no need to show that non consent for it to be rape. So they are not reducing the 'age of consent' but proposing an age at which some form of statutory rape would apply. As noted 13 is the same as the UK.

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you for that clarification, NS.

However, statutory rape is not the catch-all default offence that it is in many US state legislations.

Another aspect of French law (although from time to time it becomes a matter of debate) is that incest between consenting adults is not an offence. This also true of some other countries - eg Netherlands.

[Sriram]

I don't know if you have daughters Sriram: I have two (both adults now), and also two grand-daughters - and the scenario you outline above  isn't something I recognise ever thinking as a father of daughters during their teenage years, and I doubt that any other father of teenage daughters would think like this.

In fact the dichotomy you portray seems perverse enough to read like an unpleasant pastiche of fatherhood in a draft script of 'Carry On Parenting': to be voiced by the likes of Sid James.

Hi Gordon,

I remember Sid James alright.....Ha..Ha.  I agree that maybe I overdid the lighthearted father bit somewhat! 

But the statistics about underage sex have something to say....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574814/Britain-has-worst-underage-sex-rates.html   (a little dated I agree but still fairly telling)

*************

More children are having sex in Britain than in any other country in Europe, according to World Health Organisation figures published on Monday.

Girls outstrip boys in the numbers prepared to have sex aged 15 or younger - leading to 20 of them getting pregnant each day.

The spiralling level of teenage pregnancy not only robs young people of their childhoods but contributes to a vicious circle of family break-up, say experts.

Four out of 10 girls in England have underage sex - more than in any other European country.

English girls were followed by Welsh girls - 39 per cent of whom had underage sex. Third highest was Scotland with 34.1 per cent of girls.

The number of boys in Britain having underage sex is 34.9 per cent and higher than every other European country apart from the Ukraine with 47.1 per cent.

And more than 15 per cent of the teenagers in England fail to use contraception.

**************

Quite clearly parents are either allowing this behavior or are just indifferent to it.  Either way, it is quite clear that underage persons are having sex in large numbers. Saying that they are not capable of consent is obviously....farcical. That was my point.

[Sriram]

First of all, a couple of points to be cleared up.

Robbie - You have been watching too much American television. There is no such concept in English Law as "statutory rape".

Sriram - I was trying very hard to be sympathetic to the situation in India. I have no "paranoia" about India, I am very concious of the problems of governing such a large and culturally diverse country - and I acknowledge the buggeration factor resulting from the British raj.

May I open up this discussion a little?

For millennia, in very many cultures and religions, women have been considered the property of men, intellectually and physically inferior to men, breeding machines and domestic slaves. We now live in more liberal times when the total humanity of women, when their legal equality with men, and the right to conduct their own lives as they see fit are becoming generally accepted.

One of the things that must be accepted is that women (should) have total autonomy over their own bodies. This applies from puberty onwards and it also applies in marriage. The purpose of an age of consent is to ensure that a sexually mature, but still growing, young woman is protected from predatory (or opportunistic) men as well as from a (probably) incomplete understanding of the biological impulses and pressures she may be feeling. When she does achieve the appropriate age, her body is hers to do with what she wants. I think that it is wrong to consider an age of consent simply as a barrier erected to keep men away.

This all implies that pubescent (and prepubescent) girls and boys should receive appropriate and comprehensive education in personal development. It should be free from restrictive cultural and religious influences - which typically are concerned with restricting the roles and activities of women.

HH,

I agree whole heartedly about allowing adult women the freedom to choose.

Of course, this can become problematic if the appropriate cultural boundaries are not also emphasized at the same time.  As they say...there is no freedom without the Law (for anyone).

The boundaries that are related to mental and physical discipline  need to be taught to everyone....men and women. Mental discipline, sexual discipline, control over ones mind and desires are the most important developmental lessons that we need to teach our children. This is for their own mental and physical health...and long term happiness.

Freedom without discipline can destroy us (men and women) well before we are even aware of it.