Life after death

[torridon]

As discussed earlier...self driving cars only tell us that we can drive cars remotely, not that they don't need any driver.  Self driven cars are driven by the software and hardware that we humans have developed, just like other robots. So...nothing new there.

The software that controls a self-driven car is broadly analogous to the brain that controls a complex biological organism.  Brains have evolved naturally, whereas self-drive software is a product of human intelligent design.  The fact that humans and gazelles and parrots can move and react so much more finesse and judgment than our clumsy self drive efforts exemplifies Orgel's Second Rule - evolution is smarter than you are.

[torridon]

On the second point...Life energy is different from Consciousness. Consciousness (spirit) is said to be independent of the body/brain. But Life is an energy called Prana (or Chi for those who prefer Chinese) which enters something and gives it life.  If the prana leaves the object is dead.

The difference between Consciousness and Life is the difference between the User of a computer and the electricity that powers the computer.   There are however different levels of consciousness.

So a carrot plant has prana (or electricity) that gives it life. ..but its level of consciousness is very low. It does not have an individual spirit. Prana exists everywhere all around us and can enter any thing that it finds appropriate.  It is a naturally existing 'life energy'.   Consciousness is more complex.

All very nice, but lacking evidence.  If Prana is so ubiquitous, how come we haven't identified it and measured it already ?  What stops Prana from entering an iceberg or a skyscraper or a pair of nail clippers ?

[Sriram]

no wonder the general population are backward toothless morons if this is what they believe , there's no reason for them to be self motivated .
Your understanding of NDEs is indicative of wishful thinking ,nothing else

Walter,

The economic status of a nation or community cannot decide the validity of their spiritual philosophy.  Most economically developed nations were and are Christian nations. That does not mean Christian beliefs are more valid than others.

Most rich nations became rich only by invading and colonizing other nations. This shifted the economic balance.  Does not make the invaders philosophy more valid than that of those they invaded.

[Sriram]

The software that controls a self-driven car is broadly analogous to the brain that controls a complex biological organism.  Brains have evolved naturally, whereas self-drive software is a product of human intelligent design.  The fact that humans and gazelles and parrots can move and react so much more finesse and judgment than our clumsy self drive efforts exemplifies Orgel's Second Rule - evolution is smarter than you are.

Yes...as you say, it is smart. I agree. Evolution is regulated by an inherent Intelligence....that is why.

PS: Sorry. Suitably corrected the above sentence...

[Shaker]

That's not what he said 

[Owlswing]

I am not totally convinced that there is life before death . . .

[Sriram]

All very nice, but lacking evidence.  If Prana is so ubiquitous, how come we haven't identified it and measured it already ?  What stops Prana from entering an iceberg or a skyscraper or a pair of nail clippers ?

Electrons are present everywhere but only under certain circumstances do they become electricity.  When they do they power everything from small devices to large machines.

Prana is similar. It is present everywhere, even in inanimate objects but only under certain circumstances does it activate the object.  Everything from the first DNA replication to our lives...everything is driven by Prana.

Why can't we find it?  Well...why can't we find Dark Matter even though it is five times as abundant as normal matter?!  Why can't we find Dark Energy even though it constitutes 70% of the universe?

[Sebastian Toe]

. Ian Stevenson has done significant research on reincarnation and found some evidence.   

He also found zero evidence for Karma.
Was his research flawed?

[Stranger]

Evolution is regulated by an inherent Intelligence....

Evidence missing (again).

Prana is similar. It is present everywhere, even in inanimate objects but only under certain circumstances does it activate the object.  Everything from the first DNA replication to our lives...everything is driven by Prana.

Why can't we find it?  Well...why can't we find Dark Matter even though it is five times as abundant as normal matter?!  Why can't we find Dark Energy even though it constitutes 70% of the universe?

We have 'found' dark energy and dark matter - they are names for observed effects.

So the question remains, if this Prana malarkey is 'driving' everything, why is there zero evidence for it?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Evidence missing (again).

We have 'found' dark energy and dark matter - they are names for observed effects.

So the question remains, if this Prana malarkey is 'driving' everything, why is there zero evidence for it?

Jim Alkalili recently talked about entropy being the universal driver.

The difficulty there is how does something start with maximum order and why the universe runs like a steam engine.

[torridon]

Yes...as you say, it is smart. I agree. Evolution is regulated by an inherent Intelligence....that is why.

Assertion without evidence.

Intelligence is a product of evolution, as is photosynthesis, as is mind, as is consciousness.  if evolution were a product of intelligence, then you end up with a circular infinite regress.

[torridon]

Why can't we find it?  Well...why can't we find Dark Matter even though it is five times as abundant as normal matter?!  Why can't we find Dark Energy even though it constitutes 70% of the universe?

We have found Dark Matter according to two teams last month - inter-galactic filaments of baryons :

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2149742-half-the-universes-missing-matter-has-just-been-finally-found/

Nobody has found Prana though; why ? because nobody is looking for it; why is nobody looking for it ? because it is a spurious, superfluous concept.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

We have found Dark Matter according to two teams last month - inter-galactic filaments of baryons :

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2149742-half-the-universes-missing-matter-has-just-been-finally-found/

Nobody has found Prana though; why ? because nobody is looking for it; why is nobody looking for it ? because it is a spurious, superfluous concept.

I'm sorry but in your last paragraph you are probably discounting thousands of people on the subcontinent who are trying to track it down theoretically at least.
I have to take issue with imho the blatant eurocentrism of your statement.

[Stranger]

The difficulty there is how does something start with maximum order and why the universe runs like a steam engine.

First you need to be careful about the term 'order' to describe entropy - it works reasonably well in everyday circumstances (and for steam engines) but it's actually to do with volumes in phase space and, on the scale of the universe, gravity has a significant effect. The maximum entropy for any mass is when it's in a black hole. The entropy of the early universe was indeed very low, despite being uniform and close to thermal equilibrium (at least at the time of decoupling, when the microwave background was produced).

[ippy]

Electrons are present everywhere but only under certain circumstances do they become electricity.  When they do they power everything from small devices to large machines.

Prana is similar. It is present everywhere, even in inanimate objects but only under certain circumstances does it activate the object.  Everything from the first DNA replication to our lives...everything is driven by Prana.

Why can't we find it?  Well...why can't we find Dark Matter even though it is five times as abundant as normal matter?!  Why can't we find Dark Energy even though it constitutes 70% of the universe?

Scientists tell us they have found dark matter by the use of mathematics and as I understand we're now looking for ways to observe its behaviour, something we haven't managed to do yet, none the less there is evidence that dark matter exists, what evidence do you have for the existence of this, wooish sounding to me, 'Prana' you're going on about Sriram?

Regards ippy

[Walter]

Electrons are present everywhere but only under certain circumstances do they become electricity.  When they do they power everything from small devices to large machines.

Prana is similar. It is present everywhere, even in inanimate objects but only under certain circumstances does it activate the object.  Everything from the first DNA replication to our lives...everything is driven by Prana.

Why can't we find it?  Well...why can't we find Dark Matter even though it is five times as abundant as normal matter?!  Why can't we find Dark Energy even though it constitutes 70% of the universe?

Sriram,
you sound like a nice bloke but don't embarrass your self with this absolute bollocks.
Learn some proper science then you can reject this nonsense and free your mind

[jeremyp]

When we are asleep, there is a person still there, only just.

Is there?

Sleep proceeds in stages of light sleep and deep sleep. Dreaming doesn't happen during deep sleep apparently (assuming that REM always happens when we dream). Perhaps the person does die during deep sleep and is later "rebooted".

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sriram,
you sound like a nice bloke but don't embarrass your self with this absolute bollocks.
Learn some proper science then you can reject this nonsense and free your mind

Learn some proper science. That's the motto of Caltech isn't it?
And apparently Harvard's is "Get some knowledge up your brain".

[Walter]

Learn some proper science. That's the motto of Caltech isn't it?
And apparently Harvard's is "Get some knowledge up your brain".

er, yeah. Thanks for that 

[ippy]

Learn some proper science. That's the motto of Caltech isn't it?
And apparently Harvard's is "Get some knowledge up your brain".

Some don't even have the beginnings of understanding secularism, best thing for you would be to stick with your precious woo.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some don't even have the beginnings of understanding secularism, best thing for you would be to stick with your precious woo.

Regards ippy

I don't know what you are talking about.

[SteveH]

Of course, Life goes on after death....even for those who think otherwise!!

We get reincarnated into other bodies and develop further...and when we are sufficiently developed, we become Free and stop reincarnating. That is real Freedom.....freedom from the sense of individuality that makes us self obsessed.   

The entire Hindu, Jain and Buddhist philosophies are centered around this concept.

What evidence do we have?  There are thousands of NDE's that indicate a life after death. Ian Stevenson has done significant research on reincarnation and found some evidence.   

It also makes more sense than the 'food for bacteria' theory.....and ties in with our general tendency to become more and more loving, selfless and universal.

Near-death experiences prove nothing, because they are near-death experiences. If the person had actually died, they wouldn't be around to talk about it. I know we say things like "she died three times on the operating table", but that's loose language, meaning that her heart stopped three times, which used to be the definition of death, but is no longer adequate, now that hearts can be re-started.

[floo]

Near-death experiences prove nothing, because they are near-death experiences. If the person had actually died, they wouldn't be around to talk about it. I know we say things like "she died three times on the operating table", but that's loose language, meaning that her heart stopped three times, which used to be the definition of death, but is no longer adequate, now that hearts can be re-started.

For once I agree with you.

[SteveH]

For once I agree with you.

[Sebastian Toe]

For once I agree with you.

Best for everyone if you stop at once though eh?
Otherwise people might talk!