Life after death

[Shaker]

Not my personal experience. Had mine progressed as 'designed' my kids wouldn't have made it through childbirth and I may well not have done either. Luckily medicine has designed c-sections.

... and now the kids always get out of the car through the sun roof.

Look; with gags this old if I don't give them an airing now and again nobody will.

[Robbie]

Not my personal experience. Had mine progressed as 'designed' my kids wouldn't have made it through childbirth and I may well not have done either. Luckily medicine has designed c-sections.

I'm glad.

[Rhiannon]

... and now the kids always get out of the car through the sun roof.

Look; with gags this old if I don't give them an airing now and again nobody will.

You needn’t have bothered.

[Rhiannon]

I'm glad.

Thank you. So am I.

[Walter]

An intelligent designer that imagined a birth process that can result in four degree perineal tearing would have to be a right bastard.

dont you mean c**t😂😂😂

[Robbie]

No, look it up in the dictionary for goodness sake. You have a perineum too.
The thought of having such a bad tear is wince-inducing but, thankfully, Rhi didn't.

[Walter]

No, look it up in the dictionary for goodness sake. You have a perineum too.
The thought of having such a bad tear is wince-inducing but, thankfully, Rhi didn't.

yes I know ,I keep mine in the greenhouse though

[Sassy]

You don't have to believe in God to believe in life after death - the two beliefs are logically independent. There might be a life after death which is simply part of the way the universe happens to be. One can also believe in God without believing in life after death: it appears that that was what the ancient Hebrews believed. They thought your reward or punishment came in this life.

Not sure that is true... since some did not believe in resurrection life after death and some did.

Sadducee and Pharisee held different beliefs but all Hebrews knew/believed the Messiah was to bring Gods final truth.
Interesting you believe the above.

[Sriram]

"Evolution is smarter than you" is not meant literally.  It's just a snappy way of expressing Orgel's profound insight that blind trial and error plus selection produces superior results over conscious, deliberate, intelligent design

torridon,

I don't think you understand my point.  I was not talking about a God who actually sits down at a drawing board and designs the world. 

Humans are intelligent...but even we cannot design any product perfectly all at one time. All our inventions evolve and develop over a period of time. And there is no perfect stage at all. It is a continuous process of  development and change to suit different conditions.

There is a  'Selection' happening to these inventions also. They get modified and tailored to suit the terrain, environmental conditions and specific requirements.

Our breeding of animals and plants has a 'Selection' to suit specific requirements and environments.  'Artificial Selection' as Darwin called it.

However, all this 'Selection' will not happen without human intelligence and intervention!    Products do not evolve and develop to suit specific conditions all by themselves. It is human Intelligence that makes this possible.  Likewise with specialized hybrid animals and plants.

Similarly,  what we call 'Natural Selection' has to have some kind of intervention to make all those 'Emergent Properties' possible.  This is what I mean by Intelligence. It is inherent in Nature.

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Check out my new thread on 'Intelligence in Evolution'.

[torridon]

Are think that is only the case in fairly narrowly focused areas. Nobody would look at the recurrent laryngeal nerve and claim an intelligent designer couldn't do better.

The intelligence of an intelligent designer is itself a product of blind trial and error, and so is ultimately bounded by that.  This is the insight that we have adopted in machine learning, and why programmers will eventually become redundant - even the smartest programmers are outsmarted by simple blind evolutionary techniques in the long run.

[torridon]

torridon,

I don't think you understand my point.  I was not talking about a God who actually sits down at a drawing board and designs the world. 

Humans are intelligent...but even we cannot design any product perfectly all at one time. All our inventions evolve and develop over a period of time. And there is no perfect stage at all. It is a continuous process of  development and change to suit different conditions.

There is a  'Selection' happening to these inventions also. They get modified and tailored to suit the terrain, environmental conditions and specific requirements.

Our breeding of animals and plants has a 'Selection' to suit specific requirements and environments.  'Artificial Selection' as Darwin called it.

However, all this 'Selection' will not happen without human intelligence and intervention!    Products do not evolve and develop to suit specific conditions all by themselves. It is human Intelligence that makes this possible.  Likewise with specialized hybrid animals and plants.

Similarly,  what we call 'Natural Selection' has to have some kind of intervention to make all those 'Emergent Properties' possible.  This is what I mean by Intelligence. It is inherent in Nature.

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Check out my new thread on 'Intelligence in Evolution'.

I don't think it right to characterise natural selection as 'intelligent'.  Artificial selection might be intelligent, but we cannot infer natural selection likewise. Calling it 'selection' in itself is problematic, it is an anthropologically loaded term, it suggests a selector.  Natural selection is really an inevitability, not a manifestation of some sort of deliberate choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

"Evolution is smarter than you" is not meant literally.  It's just a snappy way of expressing Orgel's profound insight that blind trial and error plus selection produces superior results over conscious, deliberate, intelligent design

May I counsel less snap?

[Stranger]

Similarly,  what we call 'Natural Selection' has to have some kind of intervention to make all those 'Emergent Properties' possible.  This is what I mean by Intelligence. It is inherent in Nature.

No it doesn't and no it isn't. Your problem (that has been shown time and time again on this board) is that you don't understand natural selection (despite it being one of the simplest theories  in modern science).

[Rhiannon]

If life after death exists then it has to be a natural process, not a supernatural one, surely?

Not that I think it does, I just don't get why if it did it has to be the preserve of God to decide how it works.

[trippymonkey]

Would God actually BE God if It just sat back & things happened without any initial processes FROM It?
IT wouldn't be God if ALL things didn't come from It, no?

[Rhiannon]

Would God actually BE God if It just sat back & things happened without any initial processes FROM It?
IT wouldn't be God if ALL things didn't come from It, no?

Depends on how you define 'god'. Does this thing called 'god' need to have a mind, a will, a personhood?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Depends on how you define 'god'. Does this thing called 'god' need to have a mind, a will, a personhood?

Yes. Any attempt to strip these away is linguistic piracy or imperialism.

[trippymonkey]

Depends on how you define 'god'. Does this thing called 'god' need to have a mind, a will, a personhood?

See what you mean & kinda agree !!! One may ask where does the 'sense' of life come from then?

[Nearly Sane]

Yes. Any attempt to strip these away is linguistic piracy or imperialism.

You seem to treat words as if they have some form of inherent meaning - and then denounce anyone who questions this as somehow being imperialist. That's a black hole of irony you have created.

[floo]

Yes. Any attempt to strip these away is linguistic piracy or imperialism.

I wonder if you really have much understanding of the words you post. Maybe you come across a word or expression and think, 'I like that one I will incorporate it in my posts'.

[Rhiannon]

Yes. Any attempt to strip these away is linguistic piracy or imperialism.

No, that is you imposing your view of god on me. There's a word for that...

[ippy]

torridon,

I don't think you understand my point.  I was not talking about a God who actually sits down at a drawing board and designs the world. 

Humans are intelligent...but even we cannot design any product perfectly all at one time. All our inventions evolve and develop over a period of time. And there is no perfect stage at all. It is a continuous process of  development and change to suit different conditions.

There is a  'Selection' happening to these inventions also. They get modified and tailored to suit the terrain, environmental conditions and specific requirements.

Our breeding of animals and plants has a 'Selection' to suit specific requirements and environments.  'Artificial Selection' as Darwin called it.

However, all this 'Selection' will not happen without human intelligence and intervention!    Products do not evolve and develop to suit specific conditions all by themselves. It is human Intelligence that makes this possible.  Likewise with specialized hybrid animals and plants.

Similarly,  what we call 'Natural Selection' has to have some kind of intervention to make all those 'Emergent Properties' possible.  This is what I mean by Intelligence. It is inherent in Nature.

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Check out my new thread on 'Intelligence in Evolution'.

You obviously don't or are unable to understand how evolution works Sriram.

Regards ippy

[Maeght]

Similarly,  what we call 'Natural Selection' has to have some kind of intervention to make all those 'Emergent Properties' possible.

There is no intervention.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You seem to treat words as if they have some form of inherent meaning - and then denounce anyone who questions this as somehow being imperialist. That's a black hole of irony you have created.

Are you arguing that words do not have meaning?
Are you not aware of the dangers of calling four, five?
Have you not read any Orwell?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, that is you imposing your view of god on me. There's a word for that...

I can't stop your intellectual piracy. But there already is a word for an unconscious impersonal universal force and that is nature. To steal the word for the opposite of the consciousness and personality of God has been a prelude to declaring that God no longer refers to the conscious and personal. THAT is intellectual totalitarianism.

Word sharing of this type makes a mockery of having a vocabulary.