Author Topic: Intelligence in Evolution  (Read 5692 times)

Sriram

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Intelligence in Evolution
« on: November 17, 2017, 05:44:51 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a Science Daily article about Intelligence in Evolution.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151218085616.htm

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Evolution may be more intelligent than we thought, according to researchers. In a new article, the authors make the case that evolution is able to learn from previous experience, which could provide a better explanation of how evolution by natural selection produces such apparently intelligent designs.

...a key feature of intelligence is an ability to anticipate behaviours that that will lead to future benefits. Conventionally, evolution, being dependent on random variation, has been considered 'blind' or at least 'myopic' -- unable to exhibit such anticipation. But showing that evolving systems can learn from past experience means that evolution has the potential to anticipate what is needed to adapt to future environments in the same way that learning systems do.

"When we look at the amazing, apparently intelligent designs that evolution produces, it takes some imagination to understand how random variation and selection produced them. Sure, given suitable variation and suitable selection (and we also need suitable inheritance) then we're fine. But can natural selection explain the suitability of its own processes? That self-referential notion is troubling to conventional evolutionary theory -- but easy in learning theory.

"If evolution can learn from experience, and thus improve its own ability to evolve over time, this can demystify the awesomeness of the designs that evolution produces. Natural selection can accumulate knowledge that enables it to evolve smarter. That's exciting because it explains why biological design appears to be so intelligent."

************

Cheers.

Sriram

Stranger

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 08:00:31 AM »
This is Richard Watson's ideas again.

Previously discussed in this thread: Evolvability - which actually referenced a more recent story.

If anybody wants to revisit, the full text of the original article (which both stories are based on) is available here: How Can Evolution Learn?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:18:12 AM by Stranger »
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Sriram

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 01:21:19 PM »


Hi everyone,

It is obvious that there is some form of Intelligence at work in Evolution. All the complexity and all those emergent properties cannot arise just through random variation and NS.

The above article and the link given by Stranger are quite interesting. 

Cheers.

Sriram

Shaker

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 01:25:37 PM »
It is obvious that there is some form of Intelligence at work in Evolution.
No it isn't.

The only obvious thing is that you want to believe that there is.
Quote
All the complexity and all those emergent properties cannot arise just through random variation and NS.
Sounds like a positive assertion on a scientific subject standing in need of evidence.

Got any?
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Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 01:36:51 PM »
One could equally argue that evolution plays games. Think of the extinct forms known as Creodonts ultimately doomed because of their teeth, or perhaps the extinct man ape Oreopithecus, who logically should have survived since they combined both the arboreal agility of the lesser apes, with the bipedalism of the great apes.

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Stranger

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 01:39:05 PM »
It is obvious that there is some form of Intelligence at work in Evolution.

What was obvious from the previous discussion, is that you don't understand the theory of evolution by natural selection, so your opinions on the subject are of very little value.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 02:08:11 PM by Stranger »
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torridon

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM »
torridon,

Natural Selection was conceived by Darwin only as a natural process similar to Artificial Selection. He was inspired by AS to think of NS. So...if one is intelligent there is no reason why the other cannot be. Being a believer earlier and later an agnostic.... I don't think Darwin thought of Evolution as some mindless process.

I know many of you cannot think of Evolution being Intelligent. That is because you are schooled in the old school of science.  That Evolution can be Intelligent, is being considered seriously by scientists, as I have indicated in the other thread. 

Let us discuss there.

Can it be correct to call a process 'intelligent' ?  We usually talk about people being intelligent, or more latterly, the emergence of intelligence in complex systems. Furthermore, intelligence requires a context to make sense of the word; a boy that is good at maths is intelligent in the context of maths. What context could evolution be considered intelligent in ? Evolution itself is insentient, it doesn't have cares and worries, it doesn't heed the fact that the weakest runt of the litter is the first to get eaten. I think you'd need to offer some context that would make sense of the claim that evolution is intelligent, where exactly is that intelligence located and how it arises.

Sriram

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2017, 06:27:13 AM »
Can it be correct to call a process 'intelligent' ?  We usually talk about people being intelligent, or more latterly, the emergence of intelligence in complex systems. Furthermore, intelligence requires a context to make sense of the word; a boy that is good at maths is intelligent in the context of maths. What context could evolution be considered intelligent in ? Evolution itself is insentient, it doesn't have cares and worries, it doesn't heed the fact that the weakest runt of the litter is the first to get eaten. I think you'd need to offer some context that would make sense of the claim that evolution is intelligent, where exactly is that intelligence located and how it arises.


You are thinking of Intelligence only as a specific characteristic.....such as Human Intelligence.   (I think we have discussed this many times before).

Intelligence in a general sense is about responsiveness.....about feedback and self regulation. Any system that has an inbuilt feedback and self regulatory mechanism is Intelligent.

Evolution obviously has a feedback and self regulatory mechanism built into it. Secondly, without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.

Now...what this external agency is and how this intervention happens I have no idea....but I am sure that it happens.

The above articles make a beginning into investigations on such matters. It is a new way of thinking in the scientific community and is indeed promising! 




Shaker

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 07:08:30 AM »
without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.
Second bullshit assertion that we'll never see a scrap of evidence for.
Quote
Now...what this external agency is and how this intervention happens I have no idea....but I am sure that it happens.
Yep, there we go.
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torridon

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 08:18:06 AM »

Evolution obviously has a feedback and self regulatory mechanism built into it. Secondly, without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.


What makes  you think that ?

This has echoes of Mr Burns and his persistent state of incredulity - something hard to understand, therefore leap for external intervention, without pausing to consider that that external intervener is therefore by definition even harder to understand than the thing needing explanation in the first place. Complexity arises naturally out of the aggregation of simplicities; emergent phenomena are ubiquitous throughout nature, we don't need to invoke supernatural causes.  This is just like someone coming across a really big number one day and refusing out of incredulity to believe that, yes, it actually made of lots of small numbers.

Shaker

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 08:25:54 AM »
I think the last two posts illustrate the opposing principles of "endless patience with the credulous and hard of thinking" and "no patience with the credulous and hard of thinking"... though not necessarily in that order.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 09:32:07 AM »
Isn't the problem with this discussion (and similar discussions) the result of linguistic confusion? The use of the term "process" when categorising evolution by natural selection?

The word "process" implies a purpose - an objective and therefore a plan. But evolution is purposeless - it is a consequence of random, unplanned, tiny inaccuracies in the process of copying genomes. For the most part, the changes these mutations produce are of no consequence but occasionally one or more may be useful in dealing with a particular environmental condition.

Evolution is not a process but a consequence. The only part of the evolutionary activity which has any connection to being planned is the existence of mutations. However, mutations are blind and most, I speculate, die with their hosts. Another consequence is that if there is an environmental change which is challenging, the vast, overwhelming, number of members of affected organisms die and their genetic potentialities are lost forever.

I recall, some time ago, reading about a piece of woodland in (I think) Devon which had been contaminated by cyanide. Within a very short period the land was bereft of earthworms. The cyanide had poisoned them. However, twenty or so years later it was populated by earthworms which were descended from one which had possessed a mutation making it less susceptible to cyanide. Had the land suffered a different kind of accident, that earthworm would not have survived.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 09:35:11 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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Stranger

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 09:37:44 AM »
Evolution obviously has a feedback and self regulatory mechanism built into it. Secondly, without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.

Now...what this external agency is and how this intervention happens I have no idea....but I am sure that it happens.

Again, the problem is that you are speaking from a position of total ignorance. It is clear from previous conversations, including the evolvability topic, that you haven't the first clue about the theory of evolution by natural selection and seem to have no interest in learning about it.

When you have some evidence and can demonstrate a basic understanding of the theory as it stands, you may have something sensible to say about it...
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Shaker

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 09:42:27 AM »
The word "process" implies a purpose - an objective and therefore a plan.

Really? I have to say that this is new to me - I don't think of the term in such a way. Physical processes are just that. They have outcomes of course, but I never think in terms of purpose and intentionality. This form of hyperactive agency detection (wrongly named: it's suspicion rather than detection) leads so many people astray.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

torridon

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 10:01:25 AM »
Isn't the problem with this discussion (and similar discussions) the result of linguistic confusion? The use of the term "process" when categorising evolution by natural selection?

The word "process" implies a purpose - an objective and therefore a plan. But evolution is purposeless - it is a consequence of random, unplanned, tiny inaccuracies in the process of copying genomes. For the most part, the changes these mutations produce are of no consequence but occasionally one or more may be useful in dealing with a particular environmental condition.

Evolution is not a process but a consequence....

I don't see that the word 'process' carries an implication of teleology.  A process might be designed by a designer with some goal in mind, but not necessarily. In astrophysics we talk about the process of star formation; in geology we talk about the processes of subduction and convection. No teleology implied.  A process is merely a multifaceted phenomenon that persists over time.

ekim

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2017, 10:23:13 AM »
Can it be correct to call a process 'intelligent' ?  We usually talk about people being intelligent, or more latterly, the emergence of intelligence in complex systems. Furthermore, intelligence requires a context to make sense of the word; a boy that is good at maths is intelligent in the context of maths. What context could evolution be considered intelligent in ? Evolution itself is insentient, it doesn't have cares and worries, it doesn't heed the fact that the weakest runt of the litter is the first to get eaten. I think you'd need to offer some context that would make sense of the claim that evolution is intelligent, where exactly is that intelligence located and how it arises.
It maybe that Sriram is relating 'intelligence' to a particular aspect of Indian philosophy which proposes three basic templates within the universe.  These are rajas representing activity and expansion, tamas representing inertia and resistance to action and sattwa representing balancing and equilibrium, implying the ability to choose between the other two templates.  Intelligence in its original sense meant to 'choose between' and is more noticeable in life forms.  In this sense, it doesn't emerge from complex systems but it engages with simple systems and promotes their self sustaining and presumably growth into more complex systems.  The variety of homeostatic systems within the body would be seen as intelligence in action at those levels.

ippy

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2017, 01:09:56 PM »

You are thinking of Intelligence only as a specific characteristic.....such as Human Intelligence.   (I think we have discussed this many times before).

Intelligence in a general sense is about responsiveness.....about feedback and self regulation. Any system that has an inbuilt feedback and self regulatory mechanism is Intelligent.

Evolution obviously has a feedback and self regulatory mechanism built into it. Secondly, without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.

Now...what this external agency is and how this intervention happens I have no idea....but I am sure that it happens.

The above articles make a beginning into investigations on such matters. It is a new way of thinking in the scientific community and is indeed promising!

I note this post and what you are saying Sriram? Exactly what is it that makes you draw this particular conclusion?

Regards ippy.

Sriram

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 05:44:50 AM »
What makes  you think that ?

This has echoes of Mr Burns and his persistent state of incredulity - something hard to understand, therefore leap for external intervention, without pausing to consider that that external intervener is therefore by definition even harder to understand than the thing needing explanation in the first place. Complexity arises naturally out of the aggregation of simplicities; emergent phenomena are ubiquitous throughout nature, we don't need to invoke supernatural causes.  This is just like someone coming across a really big number one day and refusing out of incredulity to believe that, yes, it actually made of lots of small numbers.



Why do you keep saying 'supernatural'?    LOL!

Just because something is harder to understand we cannot eliminate it from our possible explanations.



torridon

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2017, 08:03:11 AM »


Why do you keep saying 'supernatural'?    LOL!

Just because something is harder to understand we cannot eliminate it from our possible explanations.

If not supernatural, what did you mean by 'external', then ?  If you claim that emergenct properties cannot arise without some external intervention, then what is the nature of that intervention if not supernatural and how does it work ?

Sriram

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2017, 01:58:27 PM »
If not supernatural, what did you mean by 'external', then ?  If you claim that emergenct properties cannot arise without some external intervention, then what is the nature of that intervention if not supernatural and how does it work ?

Why should an influence that is external to the organism be supernatural?  It could be very natural and a normal part of the evolutionary process and still not be easily measurable or identifiable. 

It is about 'Intelligence' and  'learning'.

The article in the OP clearly states that .....

"But can natural selection explain the suitability of its own processes? That self-referential notion is troubling to conventional evolutionary theory -- but easy in learning theory."  "Natural selection can accumulate knowledge that enables it to evolve smarter. That's exciting because it explains why biological design appears to be so intelligent."

ippy

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2017, 02:46:42 PM »


Why do you keep saying 'supernatural'?    LOL!

Just because something is harder to understand we cannot eliminate it from our possible explanations.

You don't offer any kind of evidential base for thinking there is any external influence effecting evolutional development, you could be saying that leprechauns deliberately intervene with the evolutionary process and the same demand for some kind of reasoning to explain would also be in order, something you haven't supplied here to date Sriram.

Regards ippy

Stranger

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2017, 05:12:25 PM »
Why should an influence that is external to the organism be supernatural?  It could be very natural and a normal part of the evolutionary process and still not be easily measurable or identifiable. 

Originally, you claimed something external to evolution rather than "the organism" (evolution itself is 'external' to individual organisms):-

Evolution obviously has a feedback and self regulatory mechanism built into it. Secondly, without some form of external intervention, complexity and emergent properties cannot arise.

There is nothing in the untested hypothesis referenced in the OP that suggests anything external to evolution (inheritance, random variation, and natural selection).
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torridon

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2017, 06:11:54 PM »
Why should an influence that is external to the organism be supernatural?  It could be very natural and a normal part of the evolutionary process and still not be easily measurable or identifiable. 

It is about 'Intelligence' and  'learning'.

The article in the OP clearly states that .....

"But can natural selection explain the suitability of its own processes? That self-referential notion is troubling to conventional evolutionary theory -- but easy in learning theory."  "Natural selection can accumulate knowledge that enables it to evolve smarter. That's exciting because it explains why biological design appears to be so intelligent."

I thought you were claiming something external to the process of evolution is involved.  Clearly things external to individual organisms affect it.

If what the OP article is suggesting is that the process of biological evolution itself has evolved (in some general sense) over time, I wouldn't be overly surprised to find that is the case. We observe epigenetic effects at work for instance; were there any epigenetic effects at work in the world of archaebacteria ? I doubt it, but as life has become more complex, so too have the processes by which life persists.  It's only the claim that some 'external' intervention is required to make this happen that is problematic.

jeremyp

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2017, 03:08:54 AM »

Hi everyone,

It is obvious that there is some form of Intelligence at work in Evolution. All the complexity and all those emergent properties cannot arise just through random variation and NS.

The above article and the link given by Stranger are quite interesting. 

Cheers.

Sriram
It's obvious that no intelligence is involved in evolution. If Science Daily is seriously suggesting it is, I suggest you stop reading it.
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Sriram

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Re: Intelligence in Evolution
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2017, 05:05:16 AM »
It's obvious that no intelligence is involved in evolution. If Science Daily is seriously suggesting it is, I suggest you stop reading it.



Typical...isn't it?!   Sounds very much like.... 'If the site suggests that Jesus did not exist...stop reading it!'

Strong memes!