Goals

[Nearly Sane]

I'm going by the findings such as those in the article. Target setting of this kind means that people cheat.

How many times have you had an Amazon delivery that has the wrong stuff, or is broken, or has one tiny thing in a massive box, wasting resources because the packer was in a rush? Targets do not mean efficiency.

Except the article also argues for stretching specific goals in certain situations but doesn't really state what those are.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?

And if you have no measurement of it, how would you know?

[Nearly Sane]

Wouldn't you rather I packed more? Why limit my efficiency? we are talking targets here, not orders.

Aren't targets goals?

[Rhiannon]

And if you have no measurement of it, how would you know?

I didn't say don't measure it. I question the value of set targets.

[Rhiannon]

Aren't targets goals?

Yes, but I don't see your point?

[Nearly Sane]

I didn't say don't measure it. I question the value of set targets.

So how do I evaluate 'Be all you can be'? Or what do you think would be a useful way of evaluating performance?

[Rhiannon]

Except the article also argues for stretching specific goals in certain situations but doesn't really state what those are.

It talks about weight loss, doesn't it? The target setting of 'loss' is an odd one to start with and we don't see 'loss' as a positive generally; add to that the way in which food is labelled as 'good', 'bad', 'treats' and the culture of denial and you can see why those are crap targets. Making food just food and the 'goal' not a loss at some point, but eating healthily in the here and now - a form of self care and not self denial - is shown to have a better outcome.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, but I don't see your point?

You seem to be suggesting that targets' rather than orders are ok? I may be mistaken here bit I don't see that a goal can't be beaten, and if it isn't a target then I don't see what the problem is with setting it as an aim that could be beaten?


You were suggesting that if you set a goal people would cheat - why isn't that the case with a target that you seem to think is ok?

Again. I'm back at the original article confusing its terms and its message here.

[Walter]

I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?

that's where the skill and vision of the manager comes in to play , a successful manager knows how to achieve this .

[Rhiannon]

So how do I evaluate 'Be all you can be'? Or what do you think would be a useful way of evaluating performance?

You'd need to see if people are more efficient without the setting of targets. Measure with, measure without, look at outcomes.

You also need to trust people to know what they need to do in order to work efficiently. I find this at home; my eleven year old needs me to keep an eye on his school work because he doesn't yet have the skills to self organise, whereas my fifteen year old knows far better than I do what she needs to do, when and how.

[Nearly Sane]

It talks about weight loss, doesn't it? The target setting of 'loss' is an odd one to start with and we don't see 'loss' as a positive generally; add to that the way in which food is labelled as 'good', 'bad', 'treats' and the culture of denial and you can see why those are crap targets. Making food just food and the 'goal' not a loss at some point, but eating healthily in the here and now - a form of self care and not self denial - is shown to have a better outcome.

I think there is a new para in the article after weight loss discussion where it says


'To make matters more confusing, you can forget setting yourself nice, easily attainable targets to achieve your objectives and shield yourself against the negative effects of slipping up. Research shows that tough, specific goals get better results than easy, vague ones.'

[Walter]

Aren't targets goals?

no , targets are what you aim for on the way to achieving a goal

[Nearly Sane]

You'd need to see if people are more efficient without the setting of targets. Measure with, measure without, look at outcomes.

You also need to trust people to know what they need to do in order to work efficiently. I find this at home; my eleven year old needs me to keep an eye on his school work because he doesn't yet have the skills to self organise, whereas my fifteen year old knows far better than I do what she needs to do, when and how.

You still need to have a measurement how you evaluate that. And what if  efficiency is delivery is by dates? Or by cost? Or by quality? It's good that your 15 year old knows how to work, how would that work in a complex interdependent environment?

[Rhiannon]

that's where the skill and vision of the manager comes in to play , a successful manager knows how to achieve this .

I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.

I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.

[Rhiannon]

You still need to have a measurement how you evaluate that. And what if  efficiency is delivery is by dates? Or by cost? Or by quality? It's good that your 15 year old knows how to work, how would that work in a complex interdependent environment?

Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.

I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.

All still measurable in terms of feedback. If it isn't how would you know?

[Nearly Sane]

Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.

indeed - so all of that needs to be taken into account into what the goal is.

[Rhiannon]

I think there is a new para in the article after weight loss discussion where it says


'To make matters more confusing, you can forget setting yourself nice, easily attainable targets to achieve your objectives and shield yourself against the negative effects of slipping up. Research shows that tough, specific goals get better results than easy, vague ones.'

I once did a life coaching course with Michael Neill. He said that you should make your goal something that you think is crazy. Then have  blast trying to get there.

[Walter]

I agree there, but target setting can be alienating and demoralising.

I sometimes get outstanding service in places and try to let people in management know how good their staff are in I can. I've done it with big superstores and A&E. No idea if it makes a difference but I so appreciate small things - a man carrying my bags around Currys, a healthcare assistant smiling and stopping me feeling so scared.

there's the thing , its the individual you need to praise , not the manager ,.

[Walter]

Doesn't it vary from job to job? Ten packed boxes isn't any good if the goods get broken, but if the boxes only have foam footballs it might not be so bad, but maybe if I didn't only aim for the ten I could have packed 14.

but the extra 4 might be needed for another task and you've just mucked up the system You are not privy to the running of the factory after all

[Walter]

I once did a life coaching course with Michael Neill. He said that you should make your goal something that you think is crazy. Then have  blast trying to get there.

sounds to me like his goal was to make money as a life coach 

[Rhiannon]

sounds to me like his goal was to make money as a life coach 

He's shit hot at it. 

Genuinely nice bloke though.

[Rhiannon]

there's the thing , its the individual you need to praise , not the manager ,.

Which I always do, in person, but I hope that letting the management know that their staff are going above and beyond also makes a difference to their experience of working. I know when I made the comment about how well I was treated in A&E I was told that the team that looked after me would be informed that I'd been in touch to say how much I'd appreciated their care.

[Aruntraveller]

I agree totally about attitude being key, but how can you set goals to encourage or enforce that?

Maybe if they stopped setting so many unachievable goals the staff might be more pleasant. Just a fucking thought. And breathe......

[Walter]

Maybe if they stopped setting so many unachievable goals the staff might be more pleasant. Just a fucking thought. And breathe......

it's good to have a rant sometimes eh!