Dowsing

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/21/uk-water-firms-admit-using-divining-rods-to-find-leaks-and-pipes

No issue with water companies being told not to use it. But 'medieval witchcraft'? Don't be so fucking stupid.

[Shaker]

I know precious little about the subject so I can't vouch for whatever studies have been done into its efficacy or the lack thereof; what interests me is that some of the water companies feel that it's effective:

We’ve found that some of the older methods are just as effective than the new ones

If by "some of the older methods" they mean dowsing (without wanting to say so explicitly) works, they presumably must have a reason for saying it.

Northumbria Water ... our field services manager tells me he’s seen them used successfully before! ... Anglia Water was the firm that was most insistent about the effectiveness of dowsing rods, inviting Le Page to a demonstration.

I'd like to see a demonstration too.

Christopher Hassall, a specialist in water management at the Leeds University school of biology, said: "This isn't a technique, it's witchcraft."

He says that as though it's a bad thing.

[Nearly Sane]

I know precious little about the subject  so I can't vouch for whatever studies have been done into its efficacy or the lack thereof; what interests me is that some of the water companies feel that it's effective:

If by "some of the older methods" they mean dowsing (without wanting to say so explicitly) works, they presumably must have a reason for saying it.
I'd like to see a demonstration too.

He says that as though it's a bad thing.

So when Alan says that god found his contact lens he must have some reason for saying it?

[Rhiannon]

Calling it 'witchcraft' immediately makes me think of Christian fundies. Most science types would refer to it as 'superstition' or some such. I'd love to know if he's religious himself.

[Shaker]

So when Alan says that god found his contact lens he must have some reason for saying it?

Exactly. Of course he does, and we know what it is - he thinks the Creator of All That Is guided him to it.

[Nearly Sane]

Exactly. Of course he does, and we know what it is - he thinks the Creator of All That Is guided him to it.

So that the water companies think there is something to it is worth exactly the same.

[Shaker]

So that the water companies think there is something to it is worth exactly the same.

No. Water is real. If somebody claims that they have some sort of ability to find it by some as-yet undetermined means - and nine out of eleven water companies surveyed think there's something to it - then my attitude as usual is "Show me. Stand me in a field, get your stick, do your thing and show me."

[Nearly Sane]

Calling it 'witchcraft' immediately makes me think of Christian fundies. Most science types would refer to it as 'superstition' or some such. I'd love to know if he's religious himself.

Mmm not sure I buy the distinction but the question is surely is he heavier than a duck?

[Rhiannon]

No. Water is real. If somebody claims that they have some sort of ability to find it by some as-yet undetermined means - and nine out of eleven water companies surveyed think there's something to it - then my attitude as usual is "Show me."

Agree with this. Companies don't pay more than once unless they get results. I want to see it in action.

[Nearly Sane]

No. Water is real. If somebody claims that they have some sort of ability to find it by some as-yet undetermined means - and nine out of eleven water companies surveyed think there's something to it - then my attitude as usual is "Show me."

Except in the comparison water = contact lens, and I am happy to believe Alan's contact lens is real. Absolutely if there is something to be shown then you do the studies, but those studies show there isn't. There are  millions of people who think homeopathy is great but you wouldn't think that the number was useful in saying anything.

[Nearly Sane]

Agree with this. Companies don't pay more than once unless they get results. I want to see it in action.

Yes, that's why graphology must be true.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, that's why graphology must be true.

Again, we are talking about found water/pipes/leaks, not perceived personality traits.

It may be all old pony. I want to see.

[floo]

My father and two of his brothers were dowsers, it proved very useful when they wanted to discover the best place to sink wells on their properties. My father was also a geographical dowser. He volunteered his assistance to the UK police in the early 50s when a famous piece of hardware went walkabout, and put them of the right track for its recovery.

I have no idea how dowsing is accomplished, none of my siblings or cousins have the skill. I don't think it is of supernatural origin.

[Shaker]

Except in the comparison water = contact lens, and I am happy to believe Alan's contact lens is real. Absolutely if there is something to be shown then you do the studies, but those studies show there isn't. There are  millions of people who think homeopathy is great but you wouldn't think that the number was useful in saying anything.

Except nine out of eleven water companies think that it gets results. I want to know why they think this given, as Rhiannon has noted, they're unlikely to continue to pay somebody to do it if it's as hopeless as you make out. (Though I wouldn't imagine the financial burden of paying a dowser is particularly onerous). 

Homeopathy unquestionably "works" in the sense that while there's zero evidence that it cures the underlying condition, some people find that they feel better psychologically after it than they did before on the basis of the placebo effect/suggestibility.

Failing to cure an underlying condition is my definition of "not working." Making somebody feel better, if only a little, is working of another sort, though.

Absolutely if there is something to be shown then you do the studies

This seems haywain prior to the equine. In this case it looks as though there's something to be shown: 9 out of 11 water companies - big businesses - think that there's something about this practice that works regardless of what the studies say.

[Nearly Sane]

Except nine out of eleven water companies think that it gets results. I want to know why they think this given, as Rhiannon has noted, they're unlikely to continue to pay somebody to do it if it's as hopeless as you make out. (Though I wouldn't imagine the financial burden of paying a dowser is particularly onerous). 

Homeopathy unquestionably "works" in the sense that while there's zero evidence that it cures the underlying condition, some people find that they feel better psychologically after it than they did before on the basis of the placebo effect/suggestibility.

Failing to cure an underlying condition is my definition of "not working." Making somebody feel better, if only a little, is working of another sort, though.
This seems haywain prior to the equine. In this case it looks as though there's something to be shown: 9 out of 11 water companies - big businesses - think that there's something about this practice that works regardless of what the studies say.

There is something quite touching in your faith in 'big businesses' as being clever and knowing what works as opposed to scientific studies. It's an appeal to authority, and numbers that you wouldn't use in other circs.

[Nearly Sane]

My father and two of his brothers were dowsers, it proved very useful when they wanted to discover the best place to sink wells on their properties. My father was also a geographical dowser. He volunteered his assistance to the UK police in the early 50s when a famous piece of hardware went walkabout, and put them of the right track for its recovery.

I have no idea how dowsing is accomplished, none of my siblings or cousins have the skill. I don't think it is of supernatural origin.

the plural of anecdote isn't data.

[floo]

the plural of anecdote isn't data.

Ehhhhhhhh?

[Nearly Sane]

Again, we are talking about found water/pipes/leaks, not perceived personality traits.

It may be all old pony. I want to see.

The studies show it doesn't work. Why do you think that companies who think that Myers Briggs is science are somehow worth more than the studies.

[Nearly Sane]

Ehhhhhhhh?

saying it works because you know two people who thought it worked without scientific controls is just anecdote.

[Shaker]

There is something quite touching in your faith in 'big businesses' as being clever and knowing what works as opposed to scientific studies. It's an appeal to authority, and numbers that you wouldn't use in other circs.

Faith is for wee white-haired old mammies and what have you. A majority of these companies think that it works - I assume - on the basis of the evidence available to them, not faith. If Anglia Water is sufficiently confident to throw down this gauntlet:

We're happy to take you out and demonstrate, let us know and we can arrange. We'll even make a film and post it on our social channels putting both sides!

then I want to be there watching to see what's going on, if anything is as these companies think there is. This sounds like a hypothesis being tested to me - a good start on a scientific experiment.

What are you scared of? Are you "frustrated" by these "mediaeval witchcraft practices" as is Mr Hassall? It remains to be seen if Ms. Le Page takes Anglia Water up on the offer. She'll look a bit of a prat if after all this she doesn't.

[Rhiannon]

I'd go. It'd be a laugh if nothing else. I'd take nice sandwiches for everyone too.

[Shaker]

I'd go. It'd be a laugh if nothing else. I'd take nice sandwiches for everyone too.

Will there be a vegetarian option, i.e. "fuck off"?

[Nearly Sane]

Faith is for wee white-haired old mammies and what have you. A majority of these companies think that it works - I assume - on the basis of the evidence available to them, not faith. If Anglia Water is sufficiently confident to throw down this gauntlet:
then I want to be there watching to see what's going on, if anything is as these companies think there is. This sounds like a hypothesis being tested to me - a good start on a scientific experiment.

What are you scared of? Are you "frustrated" by these "mediaeval witchcraft practices" as is Mr Hassall? It remains to be seen if Ms. Le Page takes Anglia Water up on the offer. She'll look a bit of a prat if after all this she doesn't.

Aw, how cute a quick piece of 'poisoning the well', how ironic, and a misrepresentation.


There are tons of hard nosed financial companies following Chartists even after it has been shown not to work. Dowsing has been studied, it doesn't work.

[Shaker]

There are tons of hard nosed financial companies following Chartists even after it has been shown not to work. Dowsing has been studied, it doesn't work.

On what basis do a majority of water companies think that it does in some form or other?

[Nearly Sane]

On what basis do a majority of water companies think that it does in some form or other?

and again the appeal to authority and numbers