Dowsing

[Stranger]

Sririam:- "...there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about? "

Yes sririam.

Except that it doesn't work - so no explanation is needed.

[Rhiannon]

If you use a pendulum to dowse for words using letter tiles you will get a coherent message. If you then wear a blindfold you will get nonsense.

[Maeght]

This is still going on?!

What is the difficulty in admitting that there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about?

It doesn't have to be only well known phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity and such other stuff. It doesn't have to be a con or hoax. Nor does it  have to be some known mental phenomenon such as 'subconscious observation of the environment'.

All these are 'comfort' explanations. They keep us within our comfort zone.  Why are people scared of lateral thinking and exotic explanations?  People are scared that somehow God will be forced down their throat if they are not careful. The God phobia!

Just as scientists have come up with bizarre and exotic explanations such as Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain certain observations (going against all intuitive and normal explanations)....we also may have to come up with some new explanations, not just for dowsing but for other unexplained phenomena as well.  The Biofield is just one such possibility.

It doesn't have to be either a well known 'Scientific' explanation or else 'Woo'.       But that may take a few more generations, I guess.

Nobody is scared if it. What would be scary? This is still going on because people are claiming dowsing works yet there us no evidence that it does.

[Rhiannon]

It’s sriram’s version of god dodging.

[Shaker]

This is still going on?!

What is the difficulty in admitting that there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about?

It doesn't have to be only well known phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity and such other stuff. It doesn't have to be a con or hoax. Nor does it  have to be some known mental phenomenon such as 'subconscious observation of the environment'.

Are there other possibilities then?

Just as scientists have come up with bizarre and exotic explanations such as Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain certain observations (going against all intuitive and normal explanations)

So what? That's no problem to anybody familiar with science (i.e. not you); Lewis Wolpert wrote an entire book (The Unnatural Nature of Science) about how deeply non-commensensical and anti-intuitive science really is. Huxley's idea of science as "trained and organised common sense" pretty much died with him.

If you were as much up to speed about "new" thinking as you love to tell everyone you are, you'd have known this already.

....we also may have to come up with some new explanations, not just for dowsing but for other unexplained phenomena as well.  The Biofield is just one such possibility.

Unfortunately for you and your fellow woo-peddlers everywhere an explanation isn't decorative; it can't just lie around looking nice; it has to work for its living by actually explaining things.

[jakswan]

This is still going on?!

What is the difficulty in admitting that there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about?

Lots of things we don't know anything about, what method shall we use to explore then, science or Sriram's woo parade?

[Harrowby Hall]

I think that we are being very unfair to Sriram. It may well be possible that phenomena - inexplicable to our modern scientific world - are about and at work.

In my case I am thinking about teleportation: things moving from one place to another without an human agency. I have experienced its operation.

Last summer I went to France for several weeks. My house and my garden shed were locked-up while I was away. When I arrived back there were a couple of urgent DIY tasks facing me. I went into my garage and my shed looking for tools - but I could not find them. They had completely disappeared.

It wasn't until two weeks later that I found them. They were in my son's shed - three miles away. They had clearly been teleported by paranormal means from my locked shed while I had been away.

What other conceivable explanation could there be?

[Enki]

Also it doesn't matter, hardly impacts on our lives unless we have nothing else to think about.

Sririam:- "...there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about? "

Yes sririam.

One explanation is the human propensity for wanting to conjure up all sorts of mysterious phenomena where anecdote is the only guide and even if they are found to be without substance, to carry on insisting on that there must be something at work, either involving some sort of science that we don't yet know about or something 'spiritual' which transcends science.

I remember when my sister showed me a miniature fairy castle in a snow globe(one of those trinkets which, when you shake it, stirs up the 'snow' inside it). She insisted that if you watched it for long enough, real miniature fairies would come out of the castle. She told me she had seen them. I used to watch it for ages, but nothing ever happened. Even so, I wanted to see these fairies so much that I simply believed they were hiding from me. I was however about 8 yrs old at the time.

[jeremyp]

This is still going on?!

What is the difficulty in admitting that there is probably some explanation for dowsing that we don't know anything about?

The difficulty is that when you do experiments that eliminate all the ways we do know about (e.g. by seeing the water), dowsing stops working.

It doesn't have to be only well known phenomena such as electricity, magnetism, gravity and such other stuff. It doesn't have to be a con or hoax. Nor does it  have to be some known mental phenomenon such as 'subconscious observation of the environment'.

No, you missed out confirmation bias.

[jeremyp]

But it isn't magic is it.

No, it's levitation. And it works in spite of the fact that magic is not real.

Like dowsing the implication of magic is that it is somehow supernatural. Somehow that special energy moves the twigs outside of the control of the dowser. If the reality is that the dowser is simply picking up perfectly natural signs and is themselves responsible for the movement of the twigs via the ideometer effect then that isn't dowsing.

You don't get it. I'm disagreeing with your definition of dowsing. Dowsing is finding water, like levitation is being suspended in mid air without a physical support.

The point is that dowsing is the mechanism

No, the point is that dowsing is the outcome.

That dowsing fails to work under controlled conditions where the twigs are retained yet any possibility of those external subtle signs are removed shows that dowsing doesn't work.

Levitation fails to work in controlled conditions where there are no sneaky magnets. Does levitation not happen?

This thread started with an article about water companies allegedly wasting money on dowsers. In that context, what matters is are they good value for money. Are they more successful than digging holes at random and are they more cost effective than other technological means of finding water. If the answer to both questions is yes, then who gives a fuck that dowsing is not magic?

[Stranger]

Are they more successful than digging holes at random and are they more cost effective than other technological means of finding water.

Well, are they? We've all heard anecdotes but is there any actual evidence that it works better than chance, even in practical situations?

[Walter]

Well, are they? We've all heard anecdotes but is there any actual evidence that it works better than chance, even in practical situations?

dowsing works only for those who believe it does . Just as for those who believe prayer works.

You have to believe.

[Shaker]

dowsing works only for those who believe it does . Just as for those who believe prayer works.

You have to believe.

Again we have to invoke JeremyP's question about what constitutes working, though.

[Walter]

Again we have to invoke JeremyP's question about what constitutes working, though.

as in scientifically or colloquially ?

scientifically ; its been done to death

colloquially ; carry on as it suits you

[ProfessorDavey]

No, the point is that dowsing is the outcome.

I don't agree - dowsing isn't a term used to mean water detection, it is restricted to particular methods of water detection.

You can use this equipment to detect underground water:

http://tracerelectronicsllc.com/page4/tracer/leakdetectors.html

There is no way that you would suggest that someone using this equipment was dowsing. Nope dowsing is the mechanism, not the outcome.

[Maeght]

I don't agree - dowsing isn't a term used to mean water detection, it is restricted to particular methods of water detection.

You can use this equipment to detect underground water:

http://tracerelectronicsllc.com/page4/tracer/leakdetectors.html

There is no way that you would suggest that someone using this equipment was dowsing. Nope dowsing is the mechanism, not the outcome.

Agreed.

[Walter]

Agreed.

seconded

[jeremyp]

Well, are they? We've all heard anecdotes but is there any actual evidence that it works better than chance, even in practical situations?

We don't know. Somebody needs to do  a properly controlled study. All we have are anecdotes, but we have a lot of anecdotes. I think it's worth proper investigation.

[jeremyp]

as in scientifically or colloquially ?

scientifically ; its been done to death

colloquially ; carry on as it suits you

If dowsers have a better chance of finding water and pipes underground than just guessing or even than other techniques, then empirically it works (for some definitions of "works").

[jeremyp]

I don't agree - dowsing isn't a term used to mean water detection, it is restricted to particular methods of water detection.

You can use this equipment to detect underground water:

http://tracerelectronicsllc.com/page4/tracer/leakdetectors.html

There is no way that you would suggest that someone using this equipment was dowsing. Nope dowsing is the mechanism, not the outcome.

You can't say it is the mechanism since there is no agreement amongst people that think dowsing works on what the mechanism is. There are probably even dowsers who say it works by subconscious picking up visual cues from the landscape.

[jeremyp]

scientifically ; its been done to death

No it hasn't. All that's been found is that, if a dowser is deprived of his normal natural senses, his ability goes away. All that tells us is that there is nothing supernatural about it. As far as I know, nobody has experimented in the conditions that dowsers normally operate i.e. in a field with water under it somewhere.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can't say it is the mechanism since there is no agreement amongst people that think dowsing works on what the mechanism is. There are probably even dowsers who say it works by subconscious picking up visual cues from the landscape.

If that were so it may be the case that experimenters provide a distraction or even shite methodology where the experimental set up could not possibly provide the visual cues needed for success.

[Walter]

No it hasn't. All that's been found is that, if a dowser is deprived of his normal natural senses, his ability goes away. All that tells us is that there is nothing supernatural about it. As far as I know, nobody has experimented in the conditions that dowsers normally operate i.e. in a field with water under it somewhere.

have a look at the Munich experiment 1986

[ippy]

Dowsing, horoscopes, homoeopathy, other than the well known placebo effect including which doctors, laying of hands, which craft, possession by spirits, demons etc, out of body experiences, spiritualism, ghosts, religions any religion, vampires, treading on the cracks in the pavement, most superstitions in general.

It's all good stuff for the more gullible of us out there, I'm sure there's plenty more if you look hard enough.

Regards to all ippy

[Harrowby Hall]

Here is a report on how Severn-Trent seeks for leaks.

Evidence for use of dowsing overwhelming .... NOT!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42251811


Quote

There's been much shock, horror and laughter in the science twittersphere recently that waster companies still use dowsing rods. Chatting to Severn Trent they are very clear that dowsing rods form no part of official leak detection methods. But it is possible some engineers do use them out in the field. Although obviously they clearly don't work as dowsing is superstitious rubbish.