Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?

[Spud]

Well I think God did speak to Samson, because he is a very precious rodent.

If you aren't having a 'larf', which I suspect you are not, then what does that say about your god?

It says to me that God has a special hamster which I have the privilege of looking after.

[Spud]

Here is the little chap watching TV:

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23658860_10155331632998585_5521873974802474561_n.jpg?oh=ce1d20f9c7479d19a751067974f5a32f&oe=5AB0E8EE

[Robbie]

Awwww. What's his name?

[floo]

Wind up or not, it's a charming story with a happy ending. I share your joy. Had I been looking after someone else's hamster and it escaped, I'd have had kittens!  The kittens no doubt would have found him but the ending been less happy.

It would have been better if the sky fairy had been left out of the story!

[floo]

Well I think God did speak to Samson, because he is a very precious rodent.

It says to me that God has a special hamster which I have the privilege of looking after.

Don't be so silly!

[Robbie]

Lighten up! I quite like Spud being in this mood.

[Spud]

Lighten up! I quite like Spud being in this mood.

Every time this happens I am in hysterics. Better stay on topic though!

[Robbie]

I'd still like to know the hamster's name, then I can picture him with his name. Bless.

[Nearly Sane]

Lighten up! I quite like Spud being in this mood.

Seems like the same mood that he uses to say homosexuals aren"t due same sex marriage.

[Robbie]

No - it - isn't.

[Robbie]

Spud I read back and see that his name is Samson.
Excellent name for a tough little chap who likes an adventure.

[Owlswing]

WTF have the last two pages to do with the gospels?

[Robbie]

 

[floo]

Spud isn't amusing.

[Robbie]

 

[Spud]

If you've got someone telling you about his encounter with an angel on the road, wouldn't you feel a bit like saying yes It was very similar for me when I bumped into Elvis earlier on the other week.

Regards ippy

I've never met an angel. But they are not in the same role now as they were before Christ. 'Angel' means 'messenger'. Back then, they were God's messengers to mankind about how salvation works; now that salvation is completed, that role is filled by Christ through pastors (as messengers to the church) and Christians (as messengers to those not in the church). So we wouldn't actually expect to meet a lot of angels at this stage in history.

[Spud]

Spud I read back and see that his name is Samson.
Excellent name for a tough little chap who likes an adventure.

Hm, it doesn't roll off the tongue too easily. 'Hammy' is good, I think. 'Spud' is the name of our old cat, who was a good pal.

[Dicky Underpants]

.... Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents. Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is. That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.

Except that, in regards to the details he records surrounding the birth of Christ, Luke notoriously gets things ridiculously wrong. All those details about a census when Quirinius was governor of Syria, the dates of Herod etc - everything out of sync. All cobbled together via the method of sticking a few well-known names in a hat, juggling them around, picking out a few at random, and then weaving a story around them involving angels and miraculous births.

[Spud]

Except that, in regards to the details he records surrounding the birth of Christ, Luke notoriously gets things ridiculously wrong. All those details about a census when Quirinius was governor of Syria, the dates of Herod etc - everything out of sync. All cobbled together via the method of sticking a few well-known names in a hat, juggling them around, picking out a few at random, and then weaving a story around them involving angels and miraculous births.

Dicky, do you think the census could have taken longer than one year, the year in which it is thought to have happened (6 AD)? If so, perhaps it ended at that time but Joseph could have made the journey to register 6 years earlier?

[jeremyp]

As I said, the Iliad was probably written centuries after the events it was based on.

What events is it based on? The Iliad is fiction. Some of it takes place in the environs of a real city but then so does some of Harry Potter.

Luke, however introduces us to his first eyewitness in 1:5, "In the time of Herod king of Judah there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wide Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron." Note here the historical context (Herod, king of Judah) and the family tree of both John's parents.

Anybody can place fictional events in a historical context. Note that Luke later fluffs his historicity when he invents a fictional census.

Luke is telling Theophilus exactly who the eyewitness is. That this is a real eyewitness is evident because he avoids boasting about meeting an angel, confessing that he didn't believe his message, which if someone had made a false claim, would be unlikely.
Now the person giving the sermon called attention to verse 3 where Luke says that he had investigated everything from the beginning. Thus, to answer to your question, eyewitnesses handed down the things that had been fulfilled among them, and Luke has investigated everything so that Theophilus could be sure of what he had been taught.

Since many have undertaken to set down an orderly account of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed on to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word, I too decided, after investigating everything carefully from the very first, to write an orderly account for you

Here Luke is admitting that he is using third hand accounts.

[jeremyp]

Dicky, do you think the census could have taken longer than one year, the year in which it is thought to have happened (6 AD)? If so, perhaps it ended at that time but Joseph could have made the journey to register 6 years earlier?

It says that the census was taken while Quirinius was governor of Judea. That firmly dates it to 6CE or later. More to the point, the decree allegedly emanates from Augustus and is a census of the whole World (Roman empire presumably). There's no evidence that this census ever took place.

More problems for the census:

Galilee was a client kingdom not directly under control of Rome.

If Jews had been allowed to travel from a client kingdom (Galilee) to a Roman province (Judea) to register, it would have rendered the census useless. Not only that but the economic disruption would have been a disaster.

The census is merely Luke's plot device to get Jesus to be both born in Bethlehem and from Nazareth.

[Spud]

Thanks Jeremy, it's an interesting puzzle because Joseph clearly did go to Bethlehem to register, if Luke is right. Samson sends his regards to Gerald and says that he went exploring in the garden yesterday.

[Gordon]

Thanks Jeremy, it's an interesting puzzle because Joseph clearly did go to Bethlehem to register, if Luke is right.

So the story goes, Spud: have you considered that it might not be true?

[Maeght]

Thanks Jeremy, it's an interesting puzzle because Joseph clearly did go to Bethlehem to register, if Luke is right. Samson sends his regards to Gerald and says that he went exploring in the garden yesterday.

Or Luke wasn't right.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So the story goes, Spud: have you considered that it might not be true?

Have you considered anything other?