Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 136784 times)

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #350 on: January 15, 2018, 12:48:36 PM »
Have you considered anything other?

As far as I can see it is a claim that involves the risks of mistakes or lies so I'm wondering on what basis it could be thought to be true unless the risks of mistakes or lies were meaningfully addressed by anyone taking the claim seriously, such as by raising it as a topic of discussion.

 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #351 on: January 15, 2018, 01:49:25 PM »
As far as I can see it is a claim that involves the risks of mistakes or lies so I'm wondering on what basis it could be thought to be true unless the risks of mistakes or lies were meaningfully addressed by anyone taking the claim seriously, such as by raising it as a topic of discussion.

I'm sorry Gordon but this does nothing to deflect the suspicion that you are arguing from disbelief IMHO.

Your final point is plain wrong since there is nothing to stop the person who thinks these things haven't happened from wanting to discuss whether they could happen.


Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #352 on: January 15, 2018, 02:01:46 PM »
I'm sorry Gordon but this does nothing to deflect the suspicion that you are arguing from disbelief IMHO.

I'm not arguing from disbelief: I'm simply asking how the risks of mistakes or lies have been addressed.

Quote
Your final point is plain wrong since there is nothing to stop the person who thinks these things haven't happened from wanting to discuss whether they could happen.

The point though surely, since it seems to me that Spud accepts this story as being factually true, is whether in doing so he has assessed the risks of human error or human artifice. As far as I can see he hasn't.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #353 on: January 15, 2018, 02:07:30 PM »
I'm sorry Gordon but this does nothing to deflect the suspicion that you are arguing from disbelief IMHO.

Your final point is plain wrong since there is nothing to stop the person who thinks these things haven't happened from wanting to discuss whether they could happen.


I don't believe something unless there is good reason to do so. That isn't disbelief.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #354 on: January 15, 2018, 02:15:52 PM »
I'm not arguing from disbelief: I'm simply asking how the risks of mistakes or lies have been addressed.

Can we have a response to the many addressings that have been issued or at least reasons why you do not accept them as such then?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #355 on: January 15, 2018, 02:21:23 PM »
The point though surely, since it seems to me that Spud accepts this story as being factually true, is whether in doing so he has assessed the risks of human error or human artifice. As far as I can see he hasn't.
He takes what is written, sees epistoliary backup, considers the historical context experiences Christianity as a societal phenomenon, considers the position philosophically, and has an encounter with Christ....not necessarily in that order.

If you dismiss these a priori then he has the march on you having actually considered these points.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #356 on: January 15, 2018, 02:31:47 PM »
He takes what is written, sees epistoliary backup, considers the historical context experiences Christianity as a societal phenomenon, considers the position philosophically, and has an encounter with Christ....not necessarily in that order.

If you dismiss these a priori then he has the march on you having actually considered these points.

And this helps with the facts showing him to be wrong in what way? Seems your method allows you to ignore the details of what is actually claimed. So since it doesn't work you will have to start again.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #357 on: January 15, 2018, 02:34:49 PM »
And this helps with the facts showing him to be wrong in what way? Seems your method allows you to ignore the details of what is actually claimed. So since it doesn't work you will have to start again.
Wrong about what?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #358 on: January 15, 2018, 02:37:39 PM »
Wrong about what?
That there was a Roman census that required people to go to a non Roman area to register 6 years before the governor claimed.
 was in power and 4 years after the king claimed was dead but apparently all of that was consistent.  Read the thread. And remember the title of the thread.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #359 on: January 15, 2018, 02:39:07 PM »
Seems your method allows you to ignore the details of what is actually claimed.
Things presented by Christian's here has had more thought applied to it than the facile assumption of ''default position'' and that ''at least science has a method'' some non believers hurl shamanically whenever challenged or when a picked fight is desired..........IMHO.

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #360 on: January 15, 2018, 02:39:11 PM »

I don't believe something unless there is good reason to do so. That isn't disbelief.

Good for you! :)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #361 on: January 15, 2018, 02:41:24 PM »
That there was a Roman census that required people to go to a non Roman area to register 6 years before the governor claimed.
 was in power and 4 years after the king claimed was dead but apparently all of that was consistent.  Read the thread. And remember the title of the thread.
Is this the only piece of fine detail?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #362 on: January 15, 2018, 02:43:53 PM »
Is this the only piece of fine detail?
Has anyone suggested that it us? Now given that you suggested what 'methid' Spud was using, and since it has lead to him ignoring the fact that in this case it is shockingly wrong, can you perhaps show a few examples where you think it works?

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #363 on: January 15, 2018, 02:46:57 PM »
He takes what is written, sees epistoliary backup, considers the historical context experiences Christianity as a societal phenomenon, considers the position philosophically, and has an encounter with Christ....not necessarily in that order.

If you dismiss these a priori then he has the march on you having actually considered these points.

Super - but I asked specifically about how he assessed the risks of mistakes or lies as regards of facts of the case as recorded in the NT.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #364 on: January 15, 2018, 02:48:42 PM »
Things presented by Christian's here has had more thought applied to it than the facile assumption of ''default position'' and that ''at least science has a method'' some non believers hurl shamanically whenever challenged or when a picked fight is desired..........IMHO.

So what thought have you applied that means you should believe stuff without good evidence?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #365 on: January 15, 2018, 03:04:37 PM »
So what thought have you applied that means you should believe stuff without good evidence?
First what do you mean by 'good' and secondly 'evidence for what'?

I cannot see 'good' reason for Jesus was mythic based on the obvious god avoidanced based conspiracy theory alternatives to explain the epistles and the community they point to. The Gospels cover the philosophical and theological issues with some received reportage.

At present your side in the case seems merely able to come to life or responsive to the Gospels when you think an error has been detected. In other words we can reject it all except this dating error. That's blatant posturing.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #366 on: January 15, 2018, 03:12:00 PM »
First what do you mean by 'good' and secondly 'evidence for what'?

I cannot see 'good' reason for Jesus was mythic based on the obvious god avoidanced based conspiracy theory alternatives to explain the epistles and the community they point to. The Gospels cover the philosophical and theological issues with some received reportage.

At present your side in the case seems merely able to come to life or responsive to the Gospels when you think an error has been detected. In other words we can reject it all except this dating error. That's blatant posturing.
Who said I was taken a mythicist position? You need to stop using straw. Why are you avoiding the positive claim from Spud?  Stating 'received reportage' is begging the question.  As is 'theological issues', you haven't established any such thing is meaningful and are again begging the question.

To have evidence you need a methodology, which I will ask you to outline one more time, after the many times when you haven't done so in the past . I use the naturalistic methodology of the study history to evaluate historical claims. what do you use? And for claims that don't fit in to that, here's a further chance for you not to evade the question as you have done thousands of times now - what is it?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #367 on: January 15, 2018, 03:20:28 PM »


To have evidence you need a methodology,
Can you expand on this since you have been chucking the word methodology around shamanically for a good couple of years now.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #368 on: January 15, 2018, 03:27:51 PM »

To have evidence you need a methodology,
You have not defined 'good' in the context of good evidence.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #369 on: January 15, 2018, 03:28:17 PM »
Can you expand on this since you have been chucking the word methodology around shamanically for a good couple of years now.
And expanded on it before - and been doing it for way longer than that and you have continually evaded it as you have just done again? You have even and repeatedly used the term naturalistic methodology and said you accepted it - so were you lying when you said that or were you just saying something you didn't understand?

If you want to make a claim assuming something other than everything is naturalistic, then you need a methodology that would show how you establish that claim Your recent mess of a thread an individual declared dead then being found not to be dead, illustrates that you seem unable to even frame your claims coherently since if such 'resurrections' are indeed just natural then the resurrection of JC is just the same  as me dropping a pen and it falling to the ground.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #370 on: January 15, 2018, 03:36:36 PM »
You have not defined 'good' in the context of good evidence.
One that indicates a probability that using the methodology that I am using - the naturalistic one, the one that is used in the study of history shows good reason to believe. To illustrate - there is good evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar  (multiple sources, not an unusual claim that there was a person with such authority, would be difficult to create the sources and archeological back up)but there us not much evidence for him crossing the Rubicon and saying that the die was cast (those who could witness even very few, specific sources, no back up evidence even down to not having any clear idea what the Rubicon was), and using the methodology nothing can be evidence that he was descended from the goddess Venus {because it's a non naturalistic claim using a naturalistic methodology)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #371 on: January 15, 2018, 03:47:34 PM »
And expanded on it before - and been doing it for way longer than that and you have continually evaded it as you have just done again? You have even and repeatedly used the term naturalistic methodology and said you accepted it - so were you lying when you said that or were you just saying something you didn't understand?

If you want to make a claim assuming something other than everything is naturalistic, then you need a methodology that would show how you establish that claim Your recent mess of a thread an individual declared dead then being found not to be dead, illustrates that you seem unable to even frame your claims coherently since if such 'resurrections' are indeed just natural then the resurrection of JC is just the same  as me dropping a pen and it falling to the ground.
I use the word methodology to distinguish between a systematic approach where each step addresses the previous from philosophy.
I don't believe you have addressed the issue of methodology so I will for you.
The only satisfactory methodology anyone around here has shown to be completely coherent, effective and according to you yielding of evidence is science.

To then as you seem to to then dismiss non science......religion, reason, logic, philosophy renders you an empiricist of Vienna group proportions and we know how risible that little excursion was.

As far as the resurrection thread is concerned I said I got exactly what I wanted out of it and at the end of the day that's what counts.

I thought I said else where that I am going off words like natural and supernatural particularly (yes you've guessed it) ''How shamanically etc,etc,etc.



Nearly Sane

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #372 on: January 15, 2018, 03:51:29 PM »
I use the word methodology to distinguish between a systematic approach where each step addresses the previous from philosophy.
I don't believe you have addressed the issue of methodology so I will for you.
The only satisfactory methodology anyone around here has shown to be completely coherent, effective and according to you yielding of evidence is science.

To then as you seem to to then dismiss non science......religion, reason, logic, philosophy renders you an empiricist of Vienna group proportions and we know how risible that little excursion was.

As far as the resurrection thread is concerned I said I got exactly what I wanted out of it and at the end of the day that's what counts.

I thought I said else where that I am going off words like natural and supernatural particularly (yes you've guessed it) ''How shamanically etc,etc,etc.
No - I haven't said science and my posts go into detail on that - whenever you stop lying (yet again) get back to me - this is yet another time when I attempt dialogue with you but you decide to lie about it. I should know better given  reasoning and logic but you always disappoint.

ETA - the claims of your religion are illogical and indicate a lack of reasoning and are philosophically incoherent - as well as lacking a method to make the claims coherent. And again that has been covered multiple times such as on your 'resurrection' thread so if you got what you wanted out of that thread you must have been hoping for that to be shown.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 03:56:01 PM by Nearly Sane »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #373 on: January 15, 2018, 03:53:49 PM »
One that indicates a probability that using the methodology that I am using - the naturalistic one, the one that is used in the study of history shows good reason to believe. To illustrate - there is good evidence for the existence of Julius Caesar  (multiple sources, not an unusual claim that there was a person with such authority, would be difficult to create the sources and archeological back up)but there us not much evidence for him crossing the Rubicon and saying that the die was cast (those who could witness even very few, specific sources, no back up evidence even down to not having any clear idea what the Rubicon was), and using the methodology nothing can be evidence that he was descended from the goddess Venus {because it's a non naturalistic claim using a naturalistic methodology)
Oh no the N word again.
All you have done here is used the magic N word to get away with guffing on about methodology and unusual (a particularly mealy mouthed word) disguising argument from disbelief.

It seems a mistake to me to suggest, like you are here, that history is the study of the usual or repeatable. That just seems a hankering after science. 
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 03:58:28 PM by Private Frazer »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #374 on: January 15, 2018, 04:00:47 PM »

ETA - the claims of your religion are illogical and indicate a lack of reasoning and are philosophically incoherent -
Well that's a claim that certainly needs justification.