Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 136462 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #425 on: January 16, 2018, 09:46:40 PM »
Hi Maeght.

Quote
Thanks. Not read it but will see if I can get hold of it.

I’m retired from this mb, but just by way of a public service you might not want to bother with that. I picked it up and put it down again several times way back when for
some reason my school had a battered copy.

First, it doesn’t set out as AB claims “to prove that the NT is a work of fiction” at all. Rather Morrison claimed that his intention was merely to examine the evidence.

Second, it’s one long exercise in circular reasoning (essentially, “the Bible it true; it’s in the Bible, therefore it’s true”) culminating in “so an angel must’ve done it”.

Third, it’s incredibly turgidly written.

Public service over.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:03:00 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Alan Burns

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #426 on: January 16, 2018, 11:00:34 PM »
Hi Maeght.

I’m retired from this mb, but just by way of a public service you might not want to bother with that. I picked it up and put it down again several times way back when for
some reason my school had a battered copy.

First, it doesn’t set out as AB claims “to prove that the NT is a work of fiction” at all. Rather Morrison claimed that his intention was merely to examine the evidence.

Second, it’s one long exercise in circular reasoning (essentially, “the Bible it true; it’s in the Bible, therefore it’s true”) culminating in “so an angel must’ve done it”.

Third, it’s incredibly turgidly written.

Public service over.
You could let him make his own mind up.
And Morison was a declared sceptic before he set out to examine the evidence.  It was not what he expected to find.
Of course the evidence comes mainly from the scriptures, but the analysis is based upon what you would expect to find from deliberate fabrication compared to truthful witness accounts.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 11:11:05 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #427 on: January 16, 2018, 11:26:45 PM »
Which parts of the NT to you think are fiction?
(apart from the obvious parables of course)
Well the part I have been discussing with Spud would be a place to start. Luke's census is certainly fiction for reasons already discussed.
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jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #428 on: January 16, 2018, 11:36:08 PM »
Thanks. Not read it but will see if I can get hold of it.
I read it many years ago and I found it very convincing at the time. However, his arguments as I recall, seemed to be based on the idea that it was impossible for authors in the first century to create realistic fiction.
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jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #429 on: January 16, 2018, 11:37:50 PM »

Third, it’s incredibly turgidly written.


I disagree. I found it very well written. You are right about the circularity stuff though.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #430 on: January 16, 2018, 11:39:16 PM »
AB,

Quote
And Morison was a declared sceptic before he set out to examine the evidence.  It was not what he expected to find.

That’s a falsehood commonly used by Christian apologists. In fact Morrison (whose real name by the way somewhat pleasingly was Albert Ross) was a believer in the Christian Jesus all along, and he just set out to examine the reported events leading up to and after the crucifixion.

In Chapter 1 for example he describes his feelings during his time of supposed scepticism: "For the person of Jesus Christ Himself, however, I had a deep and even reverent regard. He seemed to me an almost legendary figure of purity and noble manhood. A coarse word with regard to Him, or the taking of His name lightly, stung me to the quick".

Whence then the objectivity of the "sceptic"?

Morison actually takes the Gospels at face value throughout the book. He assumes that if the Gospels say X happened, then X happened and that's it. There’s no attempt even once to explain why he thinks that. Instead he just makes repeated claims like “unmistakably historical”, “beyond the possibility of doubt”, “It rings true...” , “the language of St. Mark is to my mind conclusive”, ”palpably true to life”, “it reads from a transcript from life”, “This is obviously a true history” etc. The whole thing in other words is opinion and assertion with no attempt at the tools of historicity.

In Chapter 9 he properly gives the game away when he says: “We have been proceeding rather on the assumption that we can postulate anything of the disciples providing that it accounts, superficially at least, for their behaviour.'”

Some though prefer evidence to “postulating anything”, which is why this type of guff doesn’t find its way onto History curricula, however much you happen to like its confirmation of your biases.

Anyways, I’m not here.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #431 on: January 16, 2018, 11:45:48 PM »
jeremyp,

Quote
I disagree. I found it very well written. You are right about the circularity stuff though.

Well, each to his own I guess. Me, I find "It rings true to me" type statements to be vapid and dull, to be ploughed through looking for an actual argument that never comes. Others though have different tastes.

I'm supposed to be retired here by the way ; - ) All best, over and out.   
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Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #432 on: January 17, 2018, 02:06:05 AM »
Hi Maeght.

I’m retired from this mb, but just by way of a public service you might not want to bother with that. I picked it up and put it down again several times way back when for
some reason my school had a battered copy.

First, it doesn’t set out as AB claims “to prove that the NT is a work of fiction” at all. Rather Morrison claimed that his intention was merely to examine the evidence.

Second, it’s one long exercise in circular reasoning (essentially, “the Bible it true; it’s in the Bible, therefore it’s true”) culminating in “so an angel must’ve done it”.

Third, it’s incredibly turgidly written.

Public service over.

Thanks.

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #433 on: January 17, 2018, 07:30:34 AM »
You could let him make his own mind up.
And Morison was a declared sceptic before he set out to examine the evidence.  It was not what he expected to find.
Of course the evidence comes mainly from the scriptures, but the analysis is based upon what you would expect to find from deliberate fabrication compared to truthful witness accounts.

I recall this book being mentioned before: turns out he was really a Christian with a bad case of confirmation bias. Incidentally Alan, how did he consider the possibility of deliberate fabrication that was convincingly done so that it might appear authentic to those who had abandoned healthy scepticism?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #434 on: January 17, 2018, 07:44:10 AM »
Hi Maeght.

I’m retired from this mb, but just by way of a public service you might not want to bother with that. I picked it up and put it down again several times way back when for
some reason my school had a battered copy.

First, it doesn’t set out as AB claims “to prove that the NT is a work of fiction” at all. Rather Morrison claimed that his intention was merely to examine the evidence.

Second, it’s one long exercise in circular reasoning (essentially, “the Bible it true; it’s in the Bible, therefore it’s true”) culminating in “so an angel must’ve done it”.

Third, it’s incredibly turgidly written.

Public service over.
Screw tape returns.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #435 on: January 17, 2018, 08:08:26 AM »
AB,

That’s a falsehood commonly used by Christian apologists. In fact Morrison (whose real name by the way somewhat pleasingly was Albert Ross) was a believer in the Christian Jesus all along, and he just set out to examine the reported events leading up to and after the crucifixion.

In Chapter 1 for example he describes his feelings during his time of supposed scepticism: "For the person of Jesus Christ Himself, however, I had a deep and even reverent regard. He seemed to me an almost legendary figure of purity and noble manhood. A coarse word with regard to Him, or the taking of His name lightly, stung me to the quick".

Whence then the objectivity of the "sceptic"?

Morison actually takes the Gospels at face value throughout the book. He assumes that if the Gospels say X happened, then X happened and that's it. There’s no attempt even once to explain why he thinks that. Instead he just makes repeated claims like “unmistakably historical”, “beyond the possibility of doubt”, “It rings true...” , “the language of St. Mark is to my mind conclusive”, ”palpably true to life”, “it reads from a transcript from life”, “This is obviously a true history” etc. The whole thing in other words is opinion and assertion with no attempt at the tools of historicity.

In Chapter 9 he properly gives the game away when he says: “We have been proceeding rather on the assumption that we can postulate anything of the disciples providing that it accounts, superficially at least, for their behaviour.'”

Some though prefer evidence to “postulating anything”, which is why this type of guff doesn’t find its way onto History curricula, however much you happen to like its confirmation of your biases.

Anyways, I’m not here.
You are still as stuck with having suggested an alternative historical narrative which needs justification as Gordon is.

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #436 on: January 17, 2018, 08:54:45 AM »
You are still as stuck with having suggested an alternative historical narrative which needs justification as Gordon is.

Nope - having reasonable doubts about one version of history does not require the doubter to make up alternative versions. It is a matter for those promoting a particular version to show that they have taken reasonable steps to assess the risk of mistakes and lies: so how are you getting on with that?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #437 on: January 17, 2018, 08:58:20 AM »
Nope - having reasonable doubts about one version of history does not require the doubter to make up alternative versions. It is a matter for those promoting a particular version to show that they have taken reasonable steps to assess the risk of mistakes and lies: so how are you getting on with that?
It automatically suggests a different history Gordon. Which then demands anything you demand of the narrative in front of you.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #438 on: January 17, 2018, 09:38:56 AM »
It automatically suggests a different history Gordon. Which then demands anything you demand of the narrative in front of you.

Don't be silly - if I doubt one version of history since the risks that it might contain mistakes or lies hadn't been addressed, then it may imply there might be an alternative: along the lines of if 'x' didn't happen as claimed then either 'x' happened differently or even that 'x' didn't happen at all - even so I'm not required to, and I don't have any basis to, propose an alternative version of history that would stand scrutiny.

To use your own terms: in doubting one narrative on the basis it may contain mistakes or lies I'm not in a position to produce an alternative narrative that would withstand the same level of scrutiny that I think you Christian chappies are avoiding when it comes to the NT narrative.

   
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:42:01 AM by Gordon »

Alan Burns

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #439 on: January 17, 2018, 10:53:45 AM »
Incidentally Alan, how did he consider the possibility of deliberate fabrication that was convincingly done so that it might appear authentic to those who had abandoned healthy scepticism?
I think you overestimate the literary prowess of the writers from this period.

And incidentally Gordon, how would you consider the possibility that your supposed healthy scepticism might be hiding you from the truth?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #440 on: January 17, 2018, 11:17:47 AM »
I think you overestimate the literary prowess of the writers from this period.

And incidentally Gordon, how would you consider the possibility that your supposed healthy scepticism might be hiding you from the truth?

Your truth, you mean.

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #441 on: January 17, 2018, 12:17:57 PM »
I think you overestimate the literary prowess of the writers from this period.

And incidentally Gordon, how would you consider the possibility that your supposed healthy scepticism might be hiding you from the truth?

I don't think my scepticism does: it helps me realise that all arguments advanced to date in favour of the divine are fallacious or incoherent in one way or another.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #442 on: January 17, 2018, 12:19:26 PM »
And incidentally Gordon, how would you consider the possibility that your supposed healthy scepticism might be hiding you from the truth?
Actually healthy scepticism is exactly what helps you to differentiation between the actual truth and something which isn't true, albeit may be vehemently believed by some people.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #443 on: January 17, 2018, 12:57:24 PM »
Which makes no sense and is not supported by other sources. Therefore Luke is wrong.
There is data that shows a census was taken in Egypt every 14 years beginning from the time of Augustus, who had previously won control of Egypt after defeating Mark Anthony in a naval battle. So this could have applied across the Roman empire.  If we know there was a census in Syria in 6 AD there could have been one 14 years before that, 8 BC, and the Jews were particularly obstinate about that sort of thing so they may have resisted for several years.
The description of Mary riding to Bethlehem to be registered on a donkey heavily pregnant is not something that you could easily say was made up, anyway. It would be more natural to assume that they really were going last minute under compulsion.
Then you have archeological evidence that Quirinus could have been in Syria in a high up position at that time. (Will post that shortly).

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #444 on: January 17, 2018, 12:59:13 PM »
Don't be silly - if I doubt one version of history since the risks that it might contain mistakes or lies hadn't been addressed, then it may imply there might be an alternative: along the lines of if 'x' didn't happen as claimed then either 'x' happened differently or even that 'x' didn't happen at all - even so I'm not required to, and I don't have any basis to, propose an alternative version of history that would stand scrutiny.

To use your own terms: in doubting one narrative on the basis it may contain mistakes or lies I'm not in a position to produce an alternative narrative that would withstand the same level of scrutiny that I think you Christian chappies are avoiding when it comes to the NT narrative.

 
Not only may apply but does but progress is obviously being made by you in the right direction.
I suppose it's a bit too soon to get you to admit to argument from incredulity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #445 on: January 17, 2018, 01:10:07 PM »
The description of Mary riding to Bethlehem to be registered on a donkey heavily pregnant is not something that you could easily say was made up, anyway.
Hmmm - does it actually say anything in the gospels about Mary riding on a donkey.

Point being that if you are finding a description so compelling that doesn't even exist in the gospels, but is clearly a much later embellishment, then why should we take your comment seriously.

Alan Burns

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #446 on: January 17, 2018, 01:42:12 PM »
Actually healthy scepticism is exactly what helps you to differentiation between the actual truth and something which isn't true, albeit may be vehemently believed by some people.
I agree as long as the sceptic is able to analyse matters with an open mind, but I get the impression that many on this forum do their best to quickly find fault with any pro Christian arguments in order to dismiss them without fully analysing them.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #447 on: January 17, 2018, 01:47:21 PM »
I agree as long as the sceptic is able to analyse matters with an open mind, but I get the impression that many on this forum do their best to quickly find fault with any pro Christian arguments in order to dismiss them without fully analysing them.

You have never provided any evidence to back up your POV.

Walter

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #448 on: January 17, 2018, 01:54:39 PM »
Hmmm - does it actually say anything in the gospels about Mary riding on a donkey.

Point being that if you are finding a description so compelling that doesn't even exist in the gospels, but is clearly a much later embellishment, then why should we take your comment seriously.
just to let you know,
Donkeys had not yet been invented in them days so it can't be true !
It wasn't until the ascent on Everest was planned that the donkey was developed to carry the equipment of the lazy .
You're welcome 😝

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #449 on: January 17, 2018, 01:57:29 PM »
I agree as long as the sceptic is able to analyse matters with an open mind, but I get the impression that many on this forum do their best to quickly find fault with any pro Christian arguments in order to dismiss them without fully analysing them.
I think you have this entirely the wrong way around - the issue being those with faith being unable to assess elements of their religion objectively, and resorting to special pleading that they would never accept in other arenas.