Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 136061 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #675 on: February 12, 2018, 07:14:27 PM »
Hi Floo,

Quote
How do you know your 'encounter' with the long dead Jesus was anything more than your imagination conjuring it up?

He doesn’t. He’s been asked this countless times but always disappears rather even than attempt an answer. The schtick involves adding “mere” before “intellectual assent” (as if he’s thereby established that there’s a more reliable way of validating truths than the intellectual one) and implying that, whatever this mysterious supposed method might be, he somehow has access to it.

Essentially it’s an emperor’s new clothes job – when you strip it back all that’s left is, “I feel really strongly that I had an encounter with Christ, therefore I had an encounter with Christ”. Why he supposes that others should treat this claim any more seriously than they (or he for that matter) should treat other people’s really strong feelings about their faith beliefs is entirely unknown, but it really is as dully vacuous a position as that.   
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 07:19:22 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #676 on: February 12, 2018, 07:27:21 PM »
Hi Floo,

He doesn’t. He’s been asked this countless times but always disappears rather even than attempt an answer. The schtick involves adding “mere” before “intellectual assent” (as if he’s thereby established that there’s a more reliable way of validating truths than the intellectual one)   
No. Mere intellectual assent applies to accepting the truth of the score of last years FA cup, that Dawkins wont be seen dead in XXX, these are things that we accept and assent to and that's it. It is an exercise in the abstract, it is a neutral fact that does not affect me at all.

The encounter was more than it being an affective piece of information. It was an experience of existence of. That there is a God and that he works through Christ. That Jesus is at the door of one's life knocking. Not lives, not mankind's but knocking at one's door.

Your dogmatic agnosticism and factoid dependence doesn't come close Hillside.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #677 on: February 12, 2018, 07:40:39 PM »
Floo,

Quote
No. Mere intellectual assent applies to accepting the truth of the score of last years FA cup, that Dawkins wont be seen dead in XXX, these are things that we accept and assent to and that's it. It is an exercise in the abstract, it is a neutral fact that does not affect me at all.

The encounter was more than it being an affective piece of information. It was an experience of existence of. That there is a God and that he works through Christ. That Jesus is at the door of one's life knocking. Not lives, not mankind's but knocking at one's door.

Your dogmatic agnosticism and factoid dependence doesn't come close Hillside.

Told you so. You can try it for yourself if you like (I've long since given up asking): ask him what method he uses to validate these remarkable claims if not for an intellectual one so as to eliminate the various alternative (but less thrilling) possible explanations for his "experience". You might also try asking him why anyone should take his explanations any more seriously they they (or he) should take the claims of others that are just as deeply held about their various "encounters" with other faith objects entirely (again I've long since given up expecting an answer to this of any kind).

Sadly, you'll find that he's the Violet Elizabeth Bott of apologetics: "It'th twoo I tell you - it'th twoo, it'th twoo, it'th twoo!" is the beginning and the end of it.       
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #678 on: February 12, 2018, 07:49:11 PM »
Floo,

Told you so. You can try it for yourself if you like (I've long since given up asking): ask him what method he uses to validate these remarkable claims if not for an intellectual one so as to eliminate the various alternative (but less thrilling) possible explanations for his "experience". You might also try asking him why anyone should take his explanations any more seriously they they (or he) should take the claims of others that are just as deeply held about their various "encounters" with other faith objects entirely (again I've long since given up expecting an answer to this of any kind).

Sadly, you'll find that he's the Violet Elizabeth Bott of apologetics: "It'th twoo I tell you - it'th twoo, it'th twoo, it'th twoo!" is the beginning and the end of it.       
I think you are trying to give the impression that I am writing off any intellectual effort I am not. What I am likening your position to is the man who knows he must eat and intimately knows the facts about digestion but won't actually open the door to the Ocado man because he has made the intellectual effort and that is sufficient.

My Christianity is agreed, there are other christians. Most people who poo poo this have never and are not prepared to travel the routes, and there is an intellectual basis in standard reasoning. The philosophicaleffort is not neglected in theism and christianity whereas in New Atheism it has been arbitrarily dismissed in favour of scientism and argumentum ad ridiculum

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #679 on: February 12, 2018, 07:52:43 PM »
Jeremy,
Whether or not either of Mark and Matthew copied the other, how do we distinguish between fictitious embellishments and eyewitness testimony when we find additional information given by one that the other doesn't include?
Perhaps the answer is that we can't. In which case, what basis do you have for arguing that it is all true?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #680 on: February 12, 2018, 11:27:49 PM »
Quote
I think you are trying to give the impression that I am writing off any intellectual effort I am not. What I am likening your position to is the man who knows he must eat and intimately knows the facts about digestion but won't actually open the door to the Ocado man because he has made the intellectual effort and that is sufficient.

My Christianity is agreed, there are other christians. Most people who poo poo this have never and are not prepared to travel the routes, and there is an intellectual basis in standard reasoning. The philosophicaleffort is not neglected in theism and christianity whereas in New Atheism it has been arbitrarily dismissed in favour of scientism and argumentum ad ridiculum

Two perfectly simple questions and, as ever, all we get in return is a barrage of straw men, derail attempts, incoherence and general gibberish - anything, anything but finally attempt at least a simple answer or two. The reasonable response to this relentless idiocy would perhaps be to think, "what a ****" but increasingly I'm thinking that someone who lies so consistently to others is probably lying to himself with equal ease. Somewhere inside there must be I'd have thought at least a little voice that says, "yikes - good question both. How should I avoid them?" before throwing as much logical illiteracy as possible at them so as to protect the "precious belief that must never be questioned". Never. Never, never, never. That I think is why all we ever get is the Violet Elizabeth Bott act - "It'th twoo I tell you". Vlad seems to me to be as lied by himself as everyone else here is lied to by him.

Rather sad really.   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 10:30:31 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #681 on: February 13, 2018, 09:56:45 AM »
In the absence of timestamped CCTV footage what do the professional historians say about this - those with no religious bias? Do you have a professional historical perspective that isn't a non-historical (that is not produced by a historian) biblical commentary?

Would this be the Benson that died in 1821? If so, I'm wondering what historians have turned up since then.

 

"The problem can be resolved if the census was not for taxation purposes but was instead a census of allegiance to Caesar Augustus (some translations of Luke 2:1-5 refer to taxation, but this is not implied in the Greek text). The fifth century historian Orosius (Adv. Pag. VI.22.7, VII.2.16) states '[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. . . . In this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and through the participation in the census, were made part of one society'. Josephus (Ant. XVII, ii, 4) appears to refer to the same event: 'when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their goodwill to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men [the Pharisees] did not swear, being above six thousand.' From the context of these words in Josephus, this census of allegiance to Caesar Augustus occurred about one year before the death of Herod the Great."
(My emphasis)
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB%2010-93Humphreys.html

If you want to read the original quote from Josephus it is here:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-17.html

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #682 on: February 13, 2018, 11:22:20 AM »
Spud your posts are not very convincing.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #683 on: February 13, 2018, 01:22:09 PM »
Spud your posts are not very convincing.
They are floo, it's just that you're not very easy to convince!

Walter

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #684 on: February 13, 2018, 01:40:00 PM »
They are floo, it's just that you're not very easy to convince!
i find your posts totally convincing Spud . In fact I rejoice even more in ever increasing opportunities to ridicule you . Thank you .

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #685 on: February 13, 2018, 02:06:06 PM »
i find your posts totally convincing Spud . In fact I rejoice even more in ever increasing opportunities to ridicule you . Thank you .
That's fine. Once the weather improves I'll be out and about so make the most of the opportunity.

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #686 on: February 13, 2018, 02:52:26 PM »
"The problem can be resolved if the census was not for taxation purposes but was instead a census of allegiance to Caesar Augustus (some translations of Luke 2:1-5 refer to taxation, but this is not implied in the Greek text). The fifth century historian Orosius (Adv. Pag. VI.22.7, VII.2.16) states '[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born. . . . In this one name of Caesar all the peoples of the great nations took oath, and through the participation in the census, were made part of one society'. Josephus (Ant. XVII, ii, 4) appears to refer to the same event: 'when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their goodwill to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men [the Pharisees] did not swear, being above six thousand.' From the context of these words in Josephus, this census of allegiance to Caesar Augustus occurred about one year before the death of Herod the Great."
(My emphasis)
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Astronomy-Cosmology/S&CB%2010-93Humphreys.html

If you want to read the original quote from Josephus it is here:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-17.html

Since the first sentence in your quote contains and 'if' followed shortly afterwards by a 'was not' that then leads directly to a 'but was instead' it seems we are in the realms of speculation - again.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #687 on: February 13, 2018, 05:44:56 PM »


My Christianity is agreed, there are other christians. Most people who poo poo this have never and are not prepared to travel the routes, and there is an intellectual basis in standard reasoning. The philosophicaleffort is not neglected in theism and christianity whereas in New Atheism it has been arbitrarily dismissed in favour of scientism and argumentum ad ridiculum

Your Christianity is one of many kinds. Many people (not most) have travelled the routes and found them wanting - even if at some point they claimed that they'd 'encountered' Jesus. The standard response to this amounts to "they weren't doing it right" or their 'encounter' wasn't the true Jesus (the TBs' encounters being in every better and deeper).
In any case, this 'personal relationship with Jesus' is really the preserve of evangelical Christianity, and came on the scene rather late in the day. I don't think one of your favourite Christian scholars, Diarmaid McCulloch, has ever made such claims about his own experience.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #688 on: February 13, 2018, 05:53:46 PM »
You can suspect what you will of course. I think you suffer from the belief that a belief is always obtained by a mere intellectual assent of a text from which one either carries on in it or steps back from it. That does not describe my encounter with Christ.

No, I do not think that a belief is always obtained by a mere intellectual assent to a text - such was never the case in my own 'revelations'. However, I came to realise that there had to be some consistency in the original texts - which are the basis for any such belief in the first place. I don't know what is the nature of the Christ you claim to have met, but I do know that an apocalyptic prophet who was wrong in his predictions about the end of the world is not one in whom one should put ultimate trust, no matter how earth-shaking one's supposed personal revelations have been.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #689 on: February 13, 2018, 05:58:06 PM »
Hi Dicky,

Quote
Your Christianity is one of many kinds. Many people (not most) have travelled the routes and found them wanting - even if at some point they claimed that they'd 'encountered' Jesus. The standard response to this amounts to "they weren't doing it right" or their 'encounter' wasn't the true Jesus (the TBs' encounters being in every better and deeper).
In any case, this 'personal relationship with Jesus' is really the preserve of evangelical Christianity, and came on the scene rather late in the day. I don't think one of your favourite Christian scholars, Diarmaid McCulloch, has ever made such claims about his own experience.

Just to note that, not only does "My Christianity is agreed, there are other christians" fail to grasp there there are many types of Christians with very different beliefs to his own, but also that it's a crude argumentum ad populum and moreover the same is true of pretty much every other faith tradition, from aborigines to zoroastrians. Are their beliefs thereby validated too I wonder?   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 06:01:38 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #690 on: February 13, 2018, 06:12:58 PM »
Hi again Dicky,

Quote
However, I came to realise that there had to be some consistency in the original texts - which are the basis for any such belief in the first place.

I find this curious. Person A has an experience, reaches for the holy texts that happen to be most proximate to him and decides that they must provide the explanation for it. Person B has just as profound an experience, reaches for the holy texts that happen to be most proximate to him and decides that they must provide the explanation for it. Person C etc...

Rarely though does it occur to any of them that's it's an astonishing co-incidence that the very texts most available at the time and place they happen to live must be the right ones, whereas those most available to people in different times and places cannot be. Doubtless had Vladdo been a 17th c Polynesian islander for example he'd be telling us just as earnestly that he'd had an experience of the local volcano god (while relying to boot on equally desperate arguments and evasions to support him).           
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:29:00 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #691 on: February 13, 2018, 06:16:35 PM »
"The problem can be resolved if the census was not for taxation purposes
The problem can also be resolved if Luke made up the census or at least fictionalised it. Given the lack of supporting evidence for Luke's census, I think it is a better solution.

Quote
The fifth century historian Orosius (Adv. Pag. VI.22.7, VII.2.16) states '[Augustus] ordered that a census be taken of each province everywhere and that all men be enrolled. So at that time, Christ was born and was entered on the Roman census list as soon as he was born
But his source is the Gospel of Luke. You can't argue that Luke was correct on the basis of some text explaining it agrees with it.

Quote
Josephus (Ant. XVII, ii, 4) appears to refer to the same event: 'when all the people of the Jews gave assurance of their goodwill to Caesar, and to the king's government, these very men [the Pharisees] did not swear, being above six thousand.' From the context of these words in Josephus, this census of allegiance to Caesar Augustus occurred about one year before the death of Herod the Great."
So not Luke's census, unless he got the date wrong.
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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #692 on: February 13, 2018, 07:47:50 PM »
So not Luke's census, unless he got the date wrong.
I quoted the whole lot but was mostly interested in the bit in bold, which I don't yet have any explanation of, ie to what was Josephus referring, if not a registration of the Jews for the purpose of pledging allegiance to Augustus at the time of Herod the great?
If this is the case then Luke has associated it with or possibly conflated it with the AD 6 census. But it means that he hasn't made up the reason for Joseph and Mary's journey.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 07:50:12 PM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #693 on: February 13, 2018, 07:52:04 PM »
I quoted the whole lot but was mostly interested in the bit in bold, which I don't yet have any explanation of, ie to what was Josephus referring, if not a registration of the Jews for Augustus at the time of Herod the great?
If this is the case then Luke has associated it with or possibly conflated it with the AD 6 census. But it means that he hasn't made up the reason for Joseph and Mary's journey.

Or he has - on what basis have you checked the facts as opposed to what is attributed to people: and even then the provenance isn't clear.

You seem desperate to accept a version of events that confirms what you like to be true: there is a name for that approach.

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #694 on: February 14, 2018, 09:19:12 AM »
I quoted the whole lot but was mostly interested in the bit in bold, which I don't yet have any explanation of, ie to what was Josephus referring, if not a registration of the Jews for the purpose of pledging allegiance to Augustus at the time of Herod the great?
If this is the case then Luke has associated it with or possibly conflated it with the AD 6 census. But it means that he hasn't made up the reason for Joseph and Mary's journey.

The more you post the less convincing you are. We get it that you want everything written in the Bible to support your take on faith, but that is all it is, a belief.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #695 on: February 14, 2018, 10:24:17 AM »
Hi Gordon,
Ok.
So Josephus may not have been referring to anything that has relevance to Luke's claim of a census of the Jews during Herod the Great's reign. Still, it would be interesting to know what it was.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #696 on: February 14, 2018, 10:27:21 AM »
The more you post the less convincing you are. We get it that you want everything written in the Bible to support your take on faith, but that is all it is, a belief.
Perhaps you can suggest why Josephus mentioned the Jews swearing an oath of allegiance to Caesar?

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #697 on: February 14, 2018, 10:37:07 AM »
Perhaps you can suggest why Josephus mentioned the Jews swearing an oath of allegiance to Caesar?

I have no idea why Josephus wrote as he did, or if he actually wrote it at all. Apparently there has been some doubt about that guy.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #698 on: February 14, 2018, 08:39:09 PM »
I have no idea why Josephus wrote as he did, or if he actually wrote it at all. Apparently there has been some doubt about that guy.

Titus Flavius Josephus was a Romanised Jew who few have doubted actually lived, we even know what he looked like.

Josephus wrote in 69 CE of the death of James, the brother of Jesus. Why would he make up something like that?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #699 on: February 15, 2018, 12:51:33 PM »
Titus Flavius Josephus was a Romanised Jew who few have doubted actually lived, we even know what he looked like.

Josephus wrote in 69 CE of the death of James, the brother of Jesus. Why would he make up something like that?
I think you are nearly 30 years out. Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews was written in about 94 CE, not 69.

But beyond that, I'm not sure what point you are making.