Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 137716 times)

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #725 on: February 21, 2018, 06:26:38 PM »
Man believes that Daniel 7-12 is predictive prophecy.
Same man writes that the Messiah rose from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy.

So are you saying that it is likely that Josephus wrote the bit about the resurrection or that this indicates that the resurrection happened?

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #726 on: February 21, 2018, 06:29:07 PM »
Man believes that Daniel 7-12 is predictive prophecy.
Same man writes that the Messiah rose from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy.

Man is somewhat gullible with regard to prophecy.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #727 on: February 21, 2018, 07:18:19 PM »
So are you saying that it is likely that Josephus wrote the bit about the resurrection or that this indicates that the resurrection happened?
That it's likely he wrote the bit about it.

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #728 on: February 21, 2018, 07:45:21 PM »
That it's likely he wrote the bit about it.

Right. It might be an indication but not particularly strong evidence I wouldn't think.

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #729 on: February 24, 2018, 02:40:19 PM »
An interesting statement from Josephus Antiquities book 10:http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-10.html

The above quote (if authentic) shows that Josephus believed in predictive prophecy; so we can say that his statement (below) about Jesus' resurrection, could be genuine:https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XVIII#Chapter_3
One of the main reasons that people believe that statement to be forged is because Josephus was not a Christian. If Josephus had believed the things in that statement to have really happened, how could he not be a Christian?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #730 on: February 24, 2018, 03:35:57 PM »
One of the main reasons that people believe that statement to be forged is because Josephus was not a Christian. If Josephus had believed the things in that statement to have really happened, how could he not be a Christian?
He could have been using sarcasm. As in look at what these geezers believed.

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #731 on: February 24, 2018, 03:38:54 PM »
He could have been using sarcasm. As in look at what these geezers believed.

He was trying to write a serious history not a post on a message board.

Anyway, there are other reasons to believe that passage is a forgery.
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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #732 on: February 26, 2018, 10:51:39 PM »
One of the main reasons that people believe that statement to be forged is because Josephus was not a Christian. If Josephus had believed the things in that statement to have really happened, how could he not be a Christian?
My guess is that a lot of Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah didn't identify as Christians, because that would have meant persecution. Or Josephus may not have understood the Christian message about why Jesus died.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #733 on: March 08, 2018, 04:39:36 PM »
My guess is that a lot of Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah didn't identify as Christians, because that would have meant persecution. Or Josephus may not have understood the Christian message about why Jesus died.

By this time, a lot of Jews (Pharisees in particular) believed there was an afterlife, and would have been well aware of the relevant text in Daniel. They probably would not have wanted to take the risk of a nasty divine judgment if they actually did believe Jesus was the Lord's Anointed and did not publically acknowledge this (I believe there's a scripture about such attitudes as well).  Feared persecution, but shrugged off the possibility of divine judgment?

As for the "Christian message about why Jesus died" - well that was still being hotly debated.
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jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #734 on: March 08, 2018, 05:33:17 PM »
My guess
Come back when you have got some evidence.

Quote
is that a lot of Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah didn't identify as Christians, because that would have meant persecution. Or Josephus may not have understood the Christian message about why Jesus died.
Josephus was not a Christian as far as any source we have says.

No Christian before about the fourth century references this passage in Josephus.

The passage appears in a totally incongruous context suggesting it was an insertion.

The reasonable conclusion is that it is forged
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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #735 on: March 09, 2018, 02:39:39 PM »
Come back when you have got some evidence.
Josephus was not a Christian as far as any source we have says.

No Christian before about the fourth century references this passage in Josephus.

The passage appears in a totally incongruous context suggesting it was an insertion.

The reasonable conclusion is that it is forged

That's fine. I am not well informed about the arguments for and against whether it was forged, but I see that it was thought to be so by most early Christian scholars. That doesn't mean that Luke wasn't historically accurate though (see #720).

Regarding Josephus' understanding of Christianity: I just came across the argument that because he said the reason for the city's destruction in AD70 was the martyrdom of James, therefore he couldn't have believed Jesus was the messiah, since if he did, he would have given Jesus' martyrdom, not James', as the reason for AD70.

Well the counter argument is that the church is symbolized as Christ's bride (see Revelation 21:2), and the events of AD70 can be understood to be a result not just of Jesus' martyrdom at the hands of the Jews (via the Romans), but of the Jewish persecution of his bride, the apostolic church. Jesus forgave them for putting him to death, but when they tried to kill his bride he took vengeance for that.

Which means that not only did Josephus believe that God could predict the future (see his comments on Daniel's prophecies) but that he understood something about the Church as the new Israel.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #736 on: March 11, 2018, 08:16:37 PM »
By this time, a lot of Jews (Pharisees in particular) believed there was an afterlife, and would have been well aware of the relevant text in Daniel. They probably would not have wanted to take the risk of a nasty divine judgment if they actually did believe Jesus was the Lord's Anointed and did not publically acknowledge this (I believe there's a scripture about such attitudes as well).  Feared persecution, but shrugged off the possibility of divine judgment?

As for the "Christian message about why Jesus died" - well that was still being hotly debated.

Just about got my head around what you are saying here.

What was the reason the Pharisees did not believe Jesus was God's Anointed? Like all people, they had a way of making sure they would be on the right side of God, should the afterlife turn out to be a reality. For them it was to avoid breaking any of the ten commandments, and just to make sure, they had a way of life that they thought minimized the possibility of breaking them, such as not eating with a Gentile, offering sacrifices in the temple etc. In fact all this did was create the outward appearance of not breaking the commandments. By itself, it didn't change the heart. It could make them feel safe from divine judgment even if they lacked the change of heart that was supposed to accompany it. I think they were so afraid to give up this way of life they had become so used to (the symbolic system of rituals set up by Moses) and that's why they rejected him.

So that's why I think people could have believed Jesus was the messiah without publicly acknowledging it: they didn't want to lose the system they had in place. The NT itself says much about the people in the churches who tried to persuade Gentile Christians to practice the Mosaic rituals. And because many believers were deceived by the doctrine of salvation by works, their religion could have easily been described in the way Josephus describes it, a "tribe of Christians".

Personally I feel that rather than dismiss the TF as forged, the possibility of it being genuine should be considered equally, and in the light of what the Bible teaches.

So for example, Josephus (?) says that Jesus possibly shouldn't be called a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works. Well maybe he had read John's or for that matter any of the gospels, and read that Jesus had done things only God can do. From the bits of his writing I have read, Josephus was clearly a God-fearing Jew, from the way he talks about Moses and the prophets. It would therefore be natural for him to believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of all that. The actual turning to Jesus for salvation may have happened and then become lukewarm, or he may have been concentrating on the history of the Jewish nation (whereas the Church was a united body of Jews and Gentiles, so might not have been something he would want to focus on, but made do with a brief mention or two of it).
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 08:38:02 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #737 on: March 11, 2018, 08:45:46 PM »
That's fine. I am not well informed about the arguments for and against whether it was forged, but I see that it was thought to be so by most early Christian scholars. That doesn't mean that Luke wasn't historically accurate though (see #720).

Regarding Josephus' understanding of Christianity: I just came across the argument that because he said the reason for the city's destruction in AD70 was the martyrdom of James, therefore he couldn't have believed Jesus was the messiah, since if he did, he would have given Jesus' martyrdom, not James', as the reason for AD70.

Well the counter argument is that the church is symbolized as Christ's bride (see Revelation 21:2), and the events of AD70 can be understood to be a result not just of Jesus' martyrdom at the hands of the Jews (via the Romans), but of the Jewish persecution of his bride, the apostolic church. Jesus forgave them for putting him to death, but when they tried to kill his bride he took vengeance for that.

Which means that not only did Josephus believe that God could predict the future (see his comments on Daniel's prophecies) but that he understood something about the Church as the new Israel.

Since Josephus does not say the destruction of Jerusalem was caused by James’ martyrdom, the whole point is moot.
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Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #738 on: March 12, 2018, 04:50:02 PM »
Since Josephus does not say the destruction of Jerusalem was caused by James’ martyrdom, the whole point is moot.
You're right, although according to Origen (or was it Eusebius) he did. I didn't check the facts.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:52:37 PM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #739 on: March 12, 2018, 06:07:59 PM »
Having said that, Jo did say this in antiquities book 18: "Nay the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down". If you look at the context of this quote it's clear that the murder of James is among the final injustices he is thinking of, which he records before ending book 20.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 04:44:01 AM by Spud »

ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #740 on: March 17, 2018, 11:50:31 PM »
Having said that, Jo did say this in antiquities book 18: "Nay the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down". If you look at the context of this quote it's clear that the murder of James is among the final injustices he is thinking of, which he records before ending book 20.

What's the point if you're unable to establish the veracity of the book in the first place, this is just like having an argument about a Harry Potter novel, it's certainly no better.

Regards ippy.

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #741 on: March 18, 2018, 03:31:05 PM »
What's the point if you're unable to establish the veracity of the book in the first place, this is just like having an argument about a Harry Potter novel, it's certainly no better.

Regards ippy.

Agreed.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #742 on: March 26, 2018, 04:07:48 PM »
What's the point if you're unable to establish the veracity of the book in the first place, this is just like having an argument about a Harry Potter novel, it's certainly no better.

Regards ippy.

You have realised the discussion here is about the historical writings of Josephus (not the Bible) - which you will of course have read, in order to give some substance to your claim. How do you rate the veracity of various historical classics, by the way? How about Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall', Tacitus' Agricola and Germania, or Herodotus? Are they all on a level with Harry Potter?

As Jeremy wrote in #731 "He was trying to write a serious history not a post on a message board."
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:12:45 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #743 on: March 26, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »
You have realised the discussion here is about the historical writings of Josephus (not the Bible) - which you will of course have read, in order to give some substance to your claim. How do you rate the veracity of various historical classics, by the way? How about Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall', Tacitus' Agricola and Germania, or Herodotus? Are they all on a level with Harry Potter?

As Jeremy wrote in #731 "He was trying to write a serious history not a post on a message board."

I take it you have some verifiable evidence that will back up the writings of Josephus, if not, well?

ippy

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #744 on: March 26, 2018, 04:39:24 PM »
I take it you have some verifiable evidence that will back up the writings of Josephus, if not, well?

ippy

So you take a position of absolute scepticism on all writing of history, then? Where does your scepticism end? And what methods do you employ to verify your facts? Are you even sure you actually exist yourself?

I was mostly taking exception to your equating genuine historical enquiry with the Harry Potter novels. If you have some unassailable methods of verifying historical truth, please let us know.
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ippy

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #745 on: March 26, 2018, 04:48:00 PM »
So you take a position of absolute scepticism on all writing of history, then? Where does your scepticism end? And what methods do you employ to verify your facts? Are you even sure you actually exist yourself?

I was mostly taking exception to your equating genuine historical enquiry with the Harry Potter novels. If you have some unassailable methods of verifying historical truth, please let us know.

We can't even give a guarantee about the accuracy of the historical actions of our kings of 500 yrs ago, some hopes as you must be aware, so much for your research into almost two thousand years old history, shaky at best.

Regards ippy   

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #746 on: March 26, 2018, 05:02:03 PM »
So you take a position of absolute scepticism on all writing of history, then? Where does your scepticism end? And what methods do you employ to verify your facts? Are you even sure you actually exist yourself?

I was mostly taking exception to your equating genuine historical enquiry with the Harry Potter novels. If you have some unassailable methods of verifying historical truth, please let us know.

Much of the Bible has no historical accuracy, it is make believe just like the Harry Potter novels.

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #747 on: March 26, 2018, 07:50:06 PM »
Much of the Bible has no historical accuracy, it is make believe just like the Harry Potter novels.

Which bits do you think have no historical accuracy?

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #748 on: March 27, 2018, 01:54:54 AM »
Which bits do you think have no historical accuracy?
It's easier to ask which bits are historically accurate. That mostly comes down to the history from the Two Kingdom period. Even that bit is heavily biased.
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floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #749 on: March 27, 2018, 08:28:06 AM »
Which bits do you think have no historical accuracy?

Anything which lacks credibility, as a lot of the Bible appear to do.