Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 135928 times)

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #750 on: March 27, 2018, 11:01:17 AM »
Anything which lacks credibility, as a lot of the Bible appear to do.

How do you judge what is credible?

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #751 on: March 27, 2018, 11:47:21 AM »
How do you judge what is credible?

I use my singe brain cell!

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #752 on: March 27, 2018, 01:50:54 PM »
I use my singe brain cell!

Seriously, how do you judge whether something is credible or not when it comes to events in the Bible?

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #753 on: March 27, 2018, 01:57:09 PM »
Seriously, how do you judge whether something is credible or not when it comes to events in the Bible?

Oh for heaven's sake stop being so pedantic. ::) How many truly dead people do you know have survived being buried and come back to life three days later, let alone someone who was subjected to crucifixion?

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #754 on: March 27, 2018, 02:03:00 PM »
Oh for heaven's sake stop being so pedantic. ::) How many truly dead people do you know have survived being buried and come back to life three days later, let alone someone who was subjected to crucifixion?

It is nothing to do with being pedantic. Your argument is flawed and misses the point about Miracles. You keep repeating it, i point this out, you don't respond, then post the same flawed argument elsewhere. Your point about events in the Bible not being credible misses the point that the Bible is not a record of everyday events but of Miraculous ones. it is not being pedantic to pint out a fundamental point about your flawed arguments.

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #755 on: March 27, 2018, 02:29:07 PM »
It is nothing to do with being pedantic. Your argument is flawed and misses the point about Miracles. You keep repeating it, i point this out, you don't respond, then post the same flawed argument elsewhere. Your point about events in the Bible not being credible misses the point that the Bible is not a record of everyday events but of Miraculous ones. it is not being pedantic to pint out a fundamental point about your flawed arguments.

And is there any verifiable evidence these so called 'miracles' actually occurred?

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #756 on: March 27, 2018, 02:41:27 PM »
And is there any verifiable evidence these so called 'miracles' actually occurred?

That is a different argument.

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #757 on: March 27, 2018, 03:07:55 PM »
That is a different argument.

I really don't get what you are on about?

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #758 on: March 27, 2018, 04:34:13 PM »
We can't even give a guarantee about the accuracy of the historical actions of our kings of 500 yrs ago, some hopes as you must be aware, so much for your research into almost two thousand years old history, shaky at best.

Regards ippy   

That I will accept. However, your original post seemed to amount to a glib dismissal of all historical research. I'm sure the presenters of the new BBC series Civilisations would not be overjoyed by your approach.
However, your attitude causes me to speculate on your attitude to philosophical matters (which would probably be best discussed elsewhere). If your approach to history is so rooted in ultimate scepticism, I wonder just what you are prepared to take on trust. You seem to be going down the route of Decartes who ended with doubting everything (except that he was thinking).
Such an attitude is a recipe for the deepest existential despair. You probably don't experience this much of the time (if at all) so I suspect you take quite a lot of information about life for granted. But I'd still like to know what your criteria are.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #759 on: March 27, 2018, 04:42:03 PM »
Oh for heaven's sake stop being so pedantic. ::) How many truly dead people do you know have survived being buried and come back to life three days later, let alone someone who was subjected to crucifixion?

It is obvious that you reject the supernatural events recorded in the Bible. But what of the ones that appear to be straightforwardly historical? We have some corroboration for a few of the historical events recorded (Sennacherib's siege of Jerusalem  under Hezekiah, for example).
In the above example, the Bible says the siege was lifted because of the intervention of an angel - whereas, the Assyrian account says that a huge tribute of gold and jewels was paid to Sennacherib, causing him to relent.
The latter - for a secularist like me - certainly sounds more plausible, but there are still things in the Assyrian account which don't ring true. This historical stuff ain't easy, but I can't help thinking it's more interesting than sitting down to watch Eastenders.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #760 on: March 27, 2018, 04:50:05 PM »
...... Your point about events in the Bible not being credible misses the point that the Bible is not a record of everyday events but of Miraculous ones....

I would have thought that those were the aspects of the Bible that Floo was taking exception to.
However, the Bible is many things, not all of which are miraculous. Some are poetic, some moralistic, some purport to be historical. There's little evidence for the supposed historical events in the Pentateuch, and many of those are interspersed with fantastical happenings. In fact there's not much that has any corroborative evidence till the Babylonian exile.
We actually have a historically verified date - 586 BC.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #761 on: March 27, 2018, 04:58:40 PM »
Much of the Bible has no historical accuracy, it is make believe just like the Harry Potter novels.

AT THIS POINT WE WERE DISCUSSING JOSEPHUS, FFS.
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Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #762 on: March 27, 2018, 05:03:49 PM »
I would have thought that those were the aspects of the Bible that Floo was taking exception to.
However, the Bible is many things, not all of which are miraculous. Some are poetic, some moralistic, some purport to be historical. There's little evidence for the supposed historical events in the Pentateuch, and many of those are interspersed with fantastical happenings. In fact there's not much that has any corroborative evidence till the Babylonian exile.
We actually have a historically verified date - 586 BC.

Which is why I asked which parts she felt not to be historically accurate. She referred to events which were nit credible, and when pressed on this raised the resurrection, so sadly I think your first line is incorrect.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #763 on: March 27, 2018, 05:10:06 PM »
Which is why I asked which parts she felt not to be historically accurate. She referred to events which were nit credible, and when pressed on this raised the resurrection, so sadly I think your first line is incorrect.

I realise that she avoided your question. I still take issue with your line that the Bible "is not a record of everyday events, but of miraculous ones". Sometimes it's that - but a lot of the time it's not.

"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #764 on: March 27, 2018, 05:10:31 PM »
I really don't get what you are on about?

Clearly.

To say there is no evidence for the miracles in the Bible is different than saying the miracles aren't credible because such things don't normally happen. The first is a factual statement, presuming you do not consider the Gospels as evidence. The second is a flawed argument which misses the point about the nature of miracles.

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #765 on: March 27, 2018, 05:13:39 PM »
I realise that she avoided your question. I still take issue with your line that the Bible "is not a record of everyday events, but of miraculous ones". Sometimes it's that - but a lot of the time it's not.

I don't disagree, but the main purpose of the Bible is to record the miraculous not the everyday. I don't think LR avoided the question, I think she was referring to the miraculous events.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #766 on: March 27, 2018, 05:15:43 PM »
The second is a flawed argument which misses the point about the nature of miracles.

But what is the nature of miracles?
There have of course been a number of Christian apologists who tried a metaphorical approach. Typical of this is David Friedrich Strauss, who interpreted the feeding of the 5000 as an image of Jesus through his teaching providing 'spiritual' food for those who were listening to him.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #767 on: March 27, 2018, 05:20:02 PM »
I don't disagree, but the main purpose of the Bible is to record the miraculous not the everyday. I don't think LR avoided the question, I think she was referring to the miraculous events.

To record the miraculous? Many thoughts come to mind, but they are perhaps more appropriate to another discussion. :)
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #768 on: March 27, 2018, 05:23:13 PM »
But what is the nature of miracles?
There have of course been a number of Christian apologists who tried a metaphorical approach. Typical of this is David Friedrich Strauss, who interpreted the feeding of the 5000 as an image of Jesus through his teaching providing 'spiritual' food for those who were listening to him.

I refer to the definition of miracles as posted earlier where they are defined as extraordinary events not explicable by natural or scientific rules. Hence saying things like that don't normally happen is a flawed argument.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #769 on: March 27, 2018, 05:25:42 PM »
I refer to the definition of miracles as posted earlier where they are defined as extraordinary events not explicable by natural or scientific rules. Hence saying things like that don't normally happen is a flawed argument.

Ah yes. Presenting the matter like that, it is indeed a flawed argument.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

floo

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #770 on: March 27, 2018, 05:30:42 PM »
Clearly.

To say there is no evidence for the miracles in the Bible is different than saying the miracles aren't credible because such things don't normally happen. The first is a factual statement, presuming you do not consider the Gospels as evidence. The second is a flawed argument which misses the point about the nature of miracles.

Why is it a flawed argument to argue against miracles, anymore than it is flawed to argue against the existence of leprechauns?

jeremyp

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #771 on: March 27, 2018, 05:41:02 PM »
Seriously, how do you judge whether something is credible or not when it comes to events in the Bible?
Look at the archaeology. Look at the records from other civilisations. Look at the internal evidence from the text.
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Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #772 on: March 27, 2018, 05:49:22 PM »
Why is it a flawed argument to argue against miracles, anymore than it is flawed to argue against the existence of leprechauns?

Who mentioned Leprechauns? Why it is a flawed argument has been explained several times. I have the feeling tryingto explain it again would be a waste of time. However ....... that specific argument is flawed. I have not said it is flawed to argue against miracles.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 05:57:17 PM by Maeght »

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #773 on: March 27, 2018, 05:49:50 PM »
Look at the archaeology. Look at the records from other civilisations. Look at the internal evidence from the text.

Agreed.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #774 on: March 27, 2018, 05:53:30 PM »
Agreed.

Well, I'm glad that three of us can agree on something.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David