Author Topic: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?  (Read 136160 times)

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1400 on: May 19, 2018, 04:01:34 PM »
https://www.britannica.com/animal/horse/Evolution-of-the-horse

Do you think this summary has got it wrong?
It says eohippus had an arched back, raised hind legs and multiple hooves on each limb. Regarding these characteristics, i can't make them out atm. Can you?
To me it looks more like a deer or goat.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 04:05:06 PM by Spud »

Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1401 on: May 19, 2018, 04:18:19 PM »
Perhaps you should refer your question to an expert, Spud, since what it looks like to the untrained eye might not be a particularly useful approach to take.

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1402 on: May 19, 2018, 04:18:33 PM »
It says eohippus had an arched back, raised hind legs and multiple hooves on each limb. Regarding these characteristics, i can't make them out atm. Can you?
To me it looks more like a deer or goat.

Read the article.

Spud

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1403 on: May 19, 2018, 04:18:59 PM »
This description says the creature had pads on its feet (like a dog):
http://www.equestrianandhorse.com/equus/evolution.html

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1404 on: May 19, 2018, 04:21:55 PM »
This description says the creature had pads on its feet (like a dog):
http://www.equestrianandhorse.com/equus/evolution.html

It said that in the earlier link. You are not poibnting out anything which is not known and recognised. But the earlier lnk shows that with further fossil discoveries the link between eonippus and modern horses became clear. Taking one fossil species in isoloation is not the approach to take. This is covered in the first link.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1405 on: May 19, 2018, 05:27:42 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
I am an evolutionist but I would like a citation for the above. Since there are several billion people born and millions more if we include the other mammals (except the monotremata) I am not sure Evolution can claim such a weight of evidence.

Unless Hillside can prove his statement he disserves science with such hyperbolic provocative triumphalism.

More nonsence. Leaving aside you bizarre misuse of language again, evolution is for all meaningful purposes a fact. So is childbirth. A fact is a fact – you don’t get to carve out special sub-categories of it. To falsify the ToE you’d have to have an event of unexpectedness of the order of hypnotising storks delivering babies. Not impossible in either case (nothing is) but as close to it as makes no difference.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 05:42:49 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1406 on: May 19, 2018, 05:31:56 PM »
Sword,

Quote
Which just goes to show that the theory is not falsifiable by science's own standards!! If somehow someone could ever overturn the vast body of evidence that supports and validates the theory of evolution, of course it would be evidence that there is an alternative explanation! Try saying to someone that 2+2=5 is wrong, but that doesn't mean that there is another answer!

And as usual, the analogies used to illustrate the explanation also illustrate the flaw. There is eye-witness observable evidence available to anyone that women give birth to babies. How much eye-witness evidence do you have for any claim involving common-descent evolution?

Evolution that is observable to and verifiable by all shows adaptation and variation. It works with what is already present. But some have extrapolated from here to claim that evolution is responsible for how that which it works with came to be. It is quintessentially a self-creation process and has at its heart the same mistake as those in philosophy who think they can create their own truth, refusing to acknowledge that it is defined outside of that for which it applies. Both exist as a mechanism of denying the author of life and the author of truth.

Which is you, as ever assuming the conclusion of that which you are trying to demonstrate. You have already decided that there is no evidence for a faith belief, so you make up an analogy for which there is no evidence and link the two.

It would be trivially easy to falsify this latest set of mistakes and lousy reasoning you’ve posted but as we both know you’d just ignore the rebuttals if I did it can you think of a reason for me to bother?
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SusanDoris

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1407 on: May 19, 2018, 05:53:29 PM »
#1384
Which just goes to show that the theory is not falsifiable by science's own standards!! If somehow someone could ever overturn the vast body of evidence that supports and validates the theory of evolution, of course it would be evidence that there is an alternative
explanation!
But that hasn’t happened, has it?! It shows absolutely no sign that it will happen.
Quote
There is eye-witness observable evidence available to anyone that women give birth to babies. How much eye-witness evidence do you have for any claim involving common-descent evolution?
That is irrelevant. How much eye-witness evidence do you have for any God/spirit/etc and which you seem to claim is the *author* of life and truth? And don’t even think of talking about people living at the time of the person labelled Christ, since none of the miracle-type aspects of those stories stands up to even fairly minimal scrutiny!
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1408 on: May 19, 2018, 06:12:21 PM »
Vladdo,

More nonsence. Leaving aside you bizarre misuse of language again, evolution is for all meaningful purposes a fact. So is childbirth. A fact is a fact – you don’t get to carve out special sub-categories of it. To falsify the ToE you’d have to have an event of unexpectedness of the order of hypnotising storks delivering babies. Not impossible in either case (nothing is) but as close to it as makes no difference.
Nothing here which can excuse you of hyperbole and category fadiddidlin
It is true that ToE has not been falsified but you are wrong with equating that which can falsify ToE with hypnotising storks delivering babies or even the order of. That is your love of argumentum ad ridiculing showing through.

Were this universe a simulation as seen as reasonable by Brian Greene and Niel de Grasse Tyson then things could be simulated as is.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1409 on: May 19, 2018, 06:50:22 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Nothing here which can excuse you of hyperbole and category fadiddidlin

Neither of which you can demonstrate.

Quote
It is true that ToE has not been falsified but you are wrong with equating that which can falsify ToE with hypnotising storks delivering babies or even the order of. That is your love of argumentum ad ridiculing showing through.

You never have understood the term "analogy" have you. Perhaps if just this once you tried looking it up that might help you? Finally?

Quote
Were this universe a simulation as seen as reasonable by Brian Greene and Niel de Grasse Tyson then things could be simulated as is.

And a clunky piece of gibberish to finish. What are you even trying to say here? 
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SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1410 on: May 20, 2018, 12:26:33 PM »
#1397

Quote from: SwordOfTheSpirit
There is eye-witness observable evidence available to anyone that women give birth to babies. How much eye-witness evidence do you have for any claim involving common-descent evolution?

On that level the analogy doesn't hold up perhaps, but are you saying you only accept things which have been observed?
Quote from: SusanDoris
That is irrelevant. How much eye-witness evidence do you have for any God/spirit/etc and which you seem to claim is the *author* of life and truth?
I don't. However I find it somewhat interesting how much faith can be demonstrated by some when there is a lack of observable evidence to back up their claims, yet at the same time dismissing something else outright because of a lack of observable evidence.
I haven't enough faith to be an atheist.

SwordOfTheSpirit

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1411 on: May 20, 2018, 12:33:46 PM »
Quote from: The poster formerly known as....
Neither of which you can demonstrate.
Quote from: bluehillside Retd
You never have understood the term "analogy" have you. Perhaps if just this once you tried looking it up that might help you? Finally?
Unfortunately bluehillside,  the analogies used to help with the explanations also illustrate the flaws.

In the analogies, that which is already present explains something else. The consistency with evolution is that it works with what is already present. Some want to take this and extrapolate to explain how that which is already present came to be. So your stork analogy illustrates the flaw, because there is no doubt where babies come from. It is observable and you do not need to be a scientist to verify it!
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Gordon

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1412 on: May 20, 2018, 12:57:33 PM »
Unfortunately bluehillside,  the analogies used to help with the explanations also illustrate the flaws.

In the analogies, that which is already present explains something else. The consistency with evolution is that it works with what is already present. Some want to take this and extrapolate to explain how that which is already present came to be. So your stork analogy illustrates the flaw, because there is no doubt where babies come from. It is observable and you do not need to be a scientist to verify it!

Whoosh!

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1413 on: May 20, 2018, 12:59:15 PM »
Unfortunately bluehillside,  the analogies used to help with the explanations also illustrate the flaws.

In the analogies, that which is already present explains something else. The consistency with evolution is that it works with what is already present. Some want to take this and extrapolate to explain how that which is already present came to be. So your stork analogy illustrates the flaw, because there is no doubt where babies come from. It is observable and you do not need to be a scientist to verify it!

Who wants to extrapolate in this way?

Maeght

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1414 on: May 20, 2018, 01:01:15 PM »
#1397
I don't. However I find it somewhat interesting how much faith can be demonstrated by some when there is a lack of observable evidence to back up their claims, yet at the same time dismissing something else outright because of a lack of observable evidence.

There is evidence for ToE which can be observed by anyone.

Enki

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1415 on: May 20, 2018, 01:25:21 PM »
There is evidence for ToE which can be observed by anyone.

Quite correct.

https://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/

Also the discovery of a new species of finch on Daphne Major in the Galapogos, taking just two generations.(see thread in the science section)
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1416 on: May 20, 2018, 02:45:36 PM »
SotS,

Quote
I don't. However I find it somewhat interesting how much faith can be demonstrated by some when there is a lack of observable evidence to back up their claims, yet at the same time dismissing something else outright because of a lack of observable evidence.

Oh dear. There's a mountain of "observable evidence" to support the ToE - just go to a museum if you don't believe me. If you're trying to say that no-one's ever seen a dinosaur at the South Mimms services then of course not - they're extinct. You've heard of Sherlock Holmes I presume? What kind of novels would they have been do you think if every time there was a murder he and Watson had shown up and said, "Well, as no-one witnessed it there's no way to find out what happened so we'll skidaddle then"? Yes, that's right - short ones.

Oh, and your attempt at an analogy with religious claims is hopeless - the fundamental difference is that there's no evidence at all for them. 

This isn't difficult to grasp you know. Really, it isn't.
     
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1417 on: May 20, 2018, 02:47:29 PM »
There is evidence for ToE which can be observed by anyone.
But then you have to go further and say the evidence is but parts of a pattern which gives rise with a bit of perceptual and logical filling in to an unavoidable whole.
You need a modicum of scientific awareness to "observe" the ToE. After all it took one of the most highly trained, committed and experience scientists of the day to actually get it.

SusanDoris

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1418 on: May 20, 2018, 02:50:26 PM »
#1397
I don't. However I find it somewhat interesting how much faith can be demonstrated by some when there is a lack of observable evidence to back up their claims, yet at the same time dismissing something else outright because of a lack of observable evidence.
Please state clearly and precisely what you imply and mean by that too vague comment.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1419 on: May 20, 2018, 02:58:16 PM »
SotS,

Quote
Unfortunately bluehillside,  the analogies used to help with the explanations also illustrate the flaws.

In the analogies, that which is already present explains something else. The consistency with evolution is that it works with what is already present. Some want to take this and extrapolate to explain how that which is already present came to be. So your stork analogy illustrates the flaw, because there is no doubt where babies come from. It is observable and you do not need to be a scientist to verify it!

Oh dear (redux). Do you think that an ant colony “is already present” in an ant? Or that the billions of possible chess positions are somehow “already present” in the 16 pieces? How about the dazzling patterns of a flock of birds in the evening sunlight being present in one starling?

Or perhaps closer to the topic how about the astonishing variety and complexity of life being “already present” in the four nucleotide bases of a DNA strand A, C, G, and T?
Can you see where you went wrong here? In a word: emergence. Emergent properties arise pretty much everywhere you look when those properties are not themselves “already present” at all in the individual component parts. There are some very good books on the subject if you’d like me to suggest a few?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1420 on: May 20, 2018, 03:12:19 PM »
Please state clearly and precisely what you imply and mean by that too vague comment.
Hillside is trying to pass off scientific and logical assumption as the equivalent of direct observation?

wigginhall

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1421 on: May 20, 2018, 03:19:53 PM »
But then you have to go further and say the evidence is but parts of a pattern which gives rise with a bit of perceptual and logical filling in to an unavoidable whole.
You need a modicum of scientific awareness to "observe" the ToE. After all it took one of the most highly trained, committed and experience scientists of the day to actually get it.

I suppose creationists tend to dismiss 'scientific awareness', so that they can make odd claims, e.g. there is no evidence for evolution, or it is all based on 'assumptions'.   It reminds me of the study of the sun, which we can now identify as a star, although maybe originally for some people, it was a deity or even a planet.    We can't actually go there and examine bits of it, but astronomy advanced sufficiently, so that stars could be described, and their development, and within that  field of study it became apparent that the sun is an average yellow dwarf, or perhaps a bit more white than that!  But it would very odd to say that we cannot do this, as we can't directly examine the sun, or we weren't there when it began to be formed.   Of course, we can examine its light and so on.   
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SteveH

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1422 on: May 20, 2018, 03:32:02 PM »
#1397
I don't. However I find it somewhat interesting how much faith can be demonstrated by some when there is a lack of observable evidence to back up their claims, yet at the same time dismissing something else outright because of a lack of observable evidence.
Creationists say that there is no evidence for evolution. The late, unlamented Colin Jordan said "there is not a shred of reliable evidence for the holocaust". Climate change deniers say there is no evidence for climate change. If you don't want to see the evidence, you won't. It is nevertheless there.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1423 on: May 20, 2018, 03:36:56 PM »
Vladdo,

Quote
Hillside is trying to pass off scientific and logical assumption as the equivalent of direct observation?

See whether you can work out for yourself where you went wrong again there. Here's a clue - all "direct observation" requires logical "assumption" to derive explanatory models.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 03:48:02 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?
« Reply #1424 on: May 21, 2018, 05:56:49 AM »
I suppose creationists tend to dismiss 'scientific awareness', so that they can make odd claims, e.g. there is no evidence for evolution, or it is all based on 'assumptions'.   It reminds me of the study of the sun, which we can now identify as a star, although maybe originally for some people, it was a deity or even a planet.    We can't actually go there and examine bits of it, but astronomy advanced sufficiently, so that stars could be described, and their development, and within that  field of study it became apparent that the sun is an average yellow dwarf, or perhaps a bit more white than that!  But it would very odd to say that we cannot do this, as we can't directly examine the sun, or we weren't there when it began to be formed.   Of course, we can examine its light and so on.   
If you are saying we can ignore the differences between using language to describe a direct observation and using language to form conceptual links between direct observations I think you are on dicey ground. That is why I criticise Hillside.

How those differences affect a campaigning atheism that sees evolution as a central plank I neither know or care.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 06:03:34 AM by The poster formerly known as.... »