Fine detail in the gospels: made up or not?

[Spud]

The heart rate changes during speech production, according to this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3976417/
Perhaps this is why there are neurons passing through the recurrent nerve towards the heart? When your brain sends signals to your larynx to speak, signals are also sent to the heart telling it to change its rate or regularity.

[SteveH]

Why wouldn't he do it that way? It works, so what is the problem?

The problem is that the detour into the chest and back again exposes it to greater risk of injury than would be the case if it followed a direct route. This is not theoretical: serious chest trauma can and does cause loss of speech.

[Spud]

The problem is that the detour into the chest and back again exposes it to greater risk of injury than would be the case if it followed a direct route. This is not theoretical: serious chest trauma can and does cause loss of speech.

That's not a design fault, though.

[Maeght]

That's not a design fault, though.

Of course it is if it is unnecessary and leads to problems.

[ippy]

The ductus arteriosus (DA) is the artery that shunts blood from the pulmonary artery to the aorta enabling blood to bypass the lungs in the fetus. One of my college *lecturers, a guy called Barry Jacobs, made reference to the recurrent laryngeal nerve (RLN) when describing how at birth, the DA closes so that blood can pass through the lungs. I think he said that tension from the left RLN, which passes underneath the DA before ascending to the larynx, aids the process of closing the DA. But the only literature I could find which supports this, I found while discussing this on the BBC R&E forum:
"Role of the vagus nerve and its recurrent laryngeal branch in the development of the human ductus arteriosus."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/aja.1001670304
This paper suggests that the supporting effect of the RLN beneath the sixth aortic arch during development, reducess the elastin content of the DA's smooth muscle wall. This means that it is less likely to remain patent after birth, when it closes in response to increased levels of chemicals in the circulation.
I think Barry said that the RLN exerts some kind of tension force on the DA at birth. But he may have misconstrued that with the above effect on it during development.

* I studied cardiology as part of a degree in Osteopathy, which I am not currently practicing.

Wouldn't all of this knowledge you have conveyed in this post of yours be down to evidence based and scientific well researched hard work, well done you Spud; what happened?

Regards ippy.

[SteveH]

The problem is that the detour into the chest and back again exposes it to greater risk of injury than would be the case if it followed a direct route. This is not theoretical: serious chest trauma can and does cause loss of speech.

That's not a design fault, though.

Of course it's a bloody design fault, if you assume design!

[jeremyp]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ductus_arteriosus

Anybody can Google it and post the Wikipedia link. I was trying to find out if Spud understood any of what he wrote.

[jeremyp]

Why wouldn't he do it that way? It works, so what is the problem?

The hallmark of good design is simplicity. Get the job done with the least complicated machinery possible. The recurrent laryngeal nerve is an example of unnecessary complexity. That suggests that mammals were not designed, or if they were, they were designed by somebody who was rubbish at it.

[Spud]

The hallmark of good design is simplicity. Get the job done with the least complicated machinery possible. The recurrent laryngeal nerve is an example of unnecessary complexity. That suggests that mammals were not designed, or if they were, they were designed by somebody who was rubbish at it.

It doesn't suggest it.wasn't designed, because I.could also say that about my mobile phone which is too heavy to.keep in my pocket for long. My phone was designed to use for more than just talking so it had to be too big to be effective as a true mobile, which would ideally be small enough to carry everywhere.
You could say the RLN was designed badly- or more accurately that a trade-off was made between using neurons that are as short as possible, and keeping the original fish-like template, if you believe fish were the ancestors of mammals.
For me though, since the evidence seems to disprove the latter I prefer to believe that mammals arose by a different mechanism. Yes it's a faith position, but Hebrews 11 verse 2 or 3 confirms that that's the position of Christians.

[Rhiannon]

So God screws up his designs just like Apple do?

[Spud]

If you believe God used evolution, yes. Although I'm not sure it is a bad design, but I haven't been able to prove that.

[Spud]

Other so-called vestigial organs have functions; these organs are only a problem when something happens that wasn't part of the plan for creation.

[Gordon]

It doesn't suggest it.wasn't designed, because I.could also say that about my mobile phone which is too heavy to.keep in my pocket for long. My phone was designed to use for more than just talking so it had to be too big to be effective as a true mobile, which would ideally be small enough to carry everywhere.

Then get a lighter phone, Spud, and I'd have to note that modern phones are hardly heavy, or perhaps invest in clothing with bigger and stronger pockets - though I'd have to say that routine clothing seems absolutely fine for the likes of an iphone.

You could say the RLN was designed badly- or more accurately that a trade-off was made between using neurons that are as short as possible, and keeping the original fish-like template, if you believe fish were the ancestors of mammals.
For me though, since the evidence seems to disprove the latter I prefer to believe that mammals arose by a different mechanism. Yes it's a faith position, but Hebrews 11 verse 2 or 3 confirms that that's the position of Christians.

The science clearly contradicts your faith position, but you aren't really bothered about the science since you think your faith is a better explanation - right? Makes me wonder though why you are so interested in matters anatomical if a bible verse provides you with the answer that best suits your inclinations.

[Spud]

The bible verse agrees with the evidence, Gordon. I've yet to see any science that proves evolution.

[Gordon]

The bible verse agrees with the evidence, Gordon. I've yet to see any science that proves evolution.

Then clearly you aren't looking at the actual science: I suspect you've been looking at those silly creationist websites again. 

[Rhiannon]

Spud, familiarise yourself with all the things that can go wrong during childbirth. Then come back and talk to use about intelligent design by a merciful god.

[Dicky Underpants]

For me though, since the evidence seems to disprove the latter I prefer to believe that mammals arose by a different mechanism. Yes it's a faith position, but Hebrews 11 verse 2 or 3 confirms that that's the position of Christians.

Mixing up abiogenesis with evolution again aren't you?

[jeremyp]

It doesn't suggest it.wasn't designed, because I.could also say that about my mobile phone which is too heavy to.keep in my pocket for long. My phone was designed to use for more than just talking so it had to be too big to be effective as a true mobile, which would ideally be small enough to carry everywhere.

How do you know that your phone isn't as simple as the designer could make it given the design brief and the constraints of the available technology when it was designed?

You could say the RLN was designed badly- or more accurately that a trade-off was made between using neurons that are as short as possible, and keeping the original fish-like template, if you believe fish were the ancestors of mammals.

A good designer wouldn't keep the original fish template when faced with the ridiculousness of the recurrent laryngeal nerve.

By the way, don't forget that the design change required for the RLN is pretty trivial. You just need to branch the nerve for the larynx on the way down and the whole situation is resolved. Only a complete idiot wouldn't make that change.

[Spud]

Jeremy,
Sorry for the delay, I'm working on it. The larynx and trachea have different embryological origins., but the same nerve supply (the vagus). The larynx forms from the 4th and 6th pharyngeal arches, but the trachea begins as an outgrowth from the gut tube. From what I can make out, the nerve to the muscles of the larynx would be forming or in place before the trachea has finished elongating. So because the trachea is supplied by the same nerve, the nerve also has to elongate when it already is connected to the larynx, so that it can supply the full length of the trachea. That's my latest thought but I may be wrong.

[jeremyp]

Jeremy,
Sorry for the delay, I'm working on it. The larynx and trachea have different embryological origins., but the same nerve supply (the vagus). The larynx forms from the 4th and 6th pharyngeal arches, but the trachea begins as an outgrowth from the gut tube. From what I can make out, the nerve to the muscles of the larynx would be forming or in place before the trachea has finished elongating. So because the trachea is supplied by the same nerve, the nerve also has to elongate when it already is connected to the larynx, so that it can supply the full length of the trachea. That's my latest thought but I may be wrong.

So not only are you claiming this designer is an idiot, but that the engineer who designed the manufacturing process was a complete spanner too.

[Spud]

So not only are you claiming this designer is an idiot, but that the engineer who designed the manufacturing process was a complete spanner too.

Well, maybe not a spanner, since the existing route works fine.
There may be an advantage or two to the existing route. If the larynx was innervated from higher up using a separate branch of the vagus, you wouldn't benefit from having changes in your voice should you develop an upper aortic aneurism or a tumour of the apex of the lung, which may otherwise not be diagnosed.

Functionally, we might also benefit from this set-up. If someone develops poor posture in the neck and shoulders, logically the anterior neck muscles would shorten. As with shortening of the sciatic nerve due to tight hamstrings, the vagus in the neck could benefit from stretching out of the neck muscles. Maybe cough, difficulty swallowing or changes in the voice could be clinical signs of poor posture, signalling that action is necessary.

[Spud]

A final thought about the RLN.  The design is such that it lies in a groove between the trachea and esophagus as it ascends to the larynx. It is held in position from below by the subclavian artery on the right and the ligamentum arteriosum on the left. This seems more secure than if it branched from the vagus higher up.
We could compare this setup to a car engine/exhaust pipe. The exhaust has to come out at the back of the car, so why not put the engine at the back and have a nice short exhaust pipe? For various reasons the engine needs to be at the front, so we need a longer than necessary exhaust pipe. It's not a perfect analogy, but makes the point that possible design constraints in the neck, such as a need for stability of a particular nerve, are prioritised at the expense of having longer than necessary neurons innervating the larynx.

[jeremyp]

If the larynx was innervated from higher up using a separate branch of the vagus, you wouldn't benefit from having changes in your voice should you develop an upper aortic aneurism or a tumour of the apex of the lung, which may otherwise not be diagnosed.

How would your voice changing be a benefit if you have an aortic aneurism or a tumour?

Aren't these things also evidence that, if there was a designer, he/she/it was very bad at it?

If someone develops poor posture in the neck and shoulders

More bad design.

Maybe cough, difficulty swallowing or changes in the voice could be clinical signs of poor posture, signalling that action is necessary.

What sort of action? Don't forget that for most of human history, we lacked the tools and knowledge to do anything about the diseases that afflicted us. You tend to know about it for some time before your appendix explodes, but until recently that was just early warning of your impending doom.

[Owlswing]

Spud, familiarise yourself with all the things that can go wrong during childbirth. Then come back and talk to use about intelligent design by a merciful god.

Come on Rhi! You know what his answer to this is gong to be!

The terrors and pain of childbirth are his God's punishment on every single woman ever born for Eve and that bloody apple!

[Robbie]

I have heard that Owl but not known anyone in my lifetime who believes it & going back in time, my maternal gran and aunt who were both obstetricians + plus m.i.l., district (now community) midwife, did not believe in it; old Queen Vic (who had plenty of experience!) championed women having pain relief for childbirth & was effective! Not everyonetook all the early Bible stuff literally.

In my lifetime and for many years before women were given pain relief of various types. We know some people had a very hard time for many reasons (I do & feel if that had been my experience I would not have done it again), and even if it's easy and natural, it's still an effort, but the idea of women 'deserving' painful childbirth is positively archaic! Plus you are forgetting women who go through pregnancy and give birth quite easily and there are many of those.

You cite Christian doctrine, I've no idea what other faiths say on this subject but what about them? They were surely in the same boat.

Childbirth is a great leveller. Nature is nature when it comes to childbirth, some easy and some not, same with animals.

Btw the Adam and Eve legend does not say "Apple", it says, "Fruit", and Eve was deceived by the arch manipulator! Adam just gave in, in my opinion he was far weaker. He just gave in, "OK then". Weak man. However, only a story to illustrate fall of man, many similar stories in other traditions.