Teacher sacked from Jewish school wins at tribunal

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I do have some sympathy with the school here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jewish-teacher-zelda-de-groen-orthodox-gan-menachem-nursery-hendon-north-london-wedlock-employment-a8090471.html

[Nearly Sane]

I have none.

[Shaker]

I do have some sympathy with the school here.

Why? The teacher's personal life, living arrangements and relationship status have nothing to do with her qualities as a teacher. In what way was the school even slightly deserving of any sympathy?

[Owlswing]

Why? The teacher's personal life, living arrangements and relationship status have nothing to do with her qualities as a teacher. In what way was the school even slightly deserving of any sympathy?

NS and Shaker - totally agree.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Why? The teacher's personal life, living arrangements and relationship status have nothing to do with her qualities as a teacher. In what way was the school even slightly deserving of any sympathy?

The teacher knew what kind of school she was joining. The school have denied the teachers versions of events, but the judge chose to believe the teachers version. I would not expect to give a lecture in a Muslim school having just downed a few shots of rum. I remember working for Wal-Mart, they had rules preventing staff from dating each other, you don't have to work for Wal-Mart if you don't want to, likewise this school had rules.

[Nearly Sane]

The teacher knew what kind of school she was joining. The school have denied the teachers versions of events, but the judge chose to believe the teachers version. I would not expect to give a lecture in a Muslim school having just downed a few shots of rum. I remember working for Wal-Mart, they had rules preventing staff from dating each other, you don't have to work for Wal-Mart if you don't want to, likewise this school had rules.

Rules that would appear to be illegal, thoughit should be noted that it isn't clear that there were actial rules from the report.

[Shaker]

The teacher knew what kind of school she was joining. The school have denied the teachers versions of events, but the judge chose to believe the teachers version.

Good.

I would not expect to give a lecture in a Muslim school having just downed a few shots of rum. I remember working for Wal-Mart, they had rules preventing staff from dating each other, you don't have to work for Wal-Mart if you don't want to, likewise this school had rules.

What NS said.

[Owlswing]

 Rules that would appear to be illegal, thoughit should be noted that it isn't clear that there were actial rules from the report.

From the reports it would seem that there IS nothing in the rules of the school, it is in the rules of Orthodoxy that have been broken and thus UK employment law has ben broken.

Also, it seems that the school encouraged the teacher to lie about her marital status in order to prevent economic/financial problems for the school.

I would agree that the teacher should have realised that her living arrangements were at odds with the Orthodox status of the school and therefore the parents of the pupils, but equally the school should have spelt out that adherance to Orthodoxy was a requirement for employment.

[Shaker]

I would agree that the teacher should have realised that her living arrangements were at odds with the Orthodox status of the school and therefore the parents of the pupils, but equally the school should have spelt out that adherance to Orthodoxy was a requirement for employment.

... and if they didn't, they occupy a very much Douglas Bader-like position.

[Owlswing]

... and if they didn't, they occupy a very much Douglas Bader-like position.

It would seem that the Court agreed with you.

[Robbie]

Either schools like the Gan Menachim Nursery School are closed and forced to be in line with other schools in this country or left alone. My view is that a teacher's private life is private but in that particularly Orthodox Jewish society, conformity is considered to be essential. None of the schools run by the Hassidic, Haredi and similar others have much in common with non-faith schools - kids leave school barely able to write a proper sentence in English - but people outside the groups have accepted that for years & left them alone because the communities are quite well respected, self regulating and cause no trouble. So they can't complain if a school makes a decision about a teacher that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere.

Either such strict faith schools are abolished (some have been closed on grounds of miserably failing ofsted and Health &Safety but they spring up again illegally), or we put up with them.

The teacher has received a good pay out and if she is a qualified nursery teacher she'll soon find another job. I wonder why she chose to apply to work at that school in the first place.

[Owlswing]

Either schools like the Gan Menachim Nursery School are closed and forced to be in line with other schools in this country or left alone. My view is that a teacher's private life is private but in that particularly Orthodox Jewish society, conformity is considered to be essential. None of the schools run by the Hassidic, Haredi and similar others have much in common with non-faith schools - kids leave school barely able to write a proper sentence in English - but people outside the groups have accepted that for years & left them alone because the communities are quite well respected, self regulating and cause no trouble. So they can't complain if a school makes a decision about a teacher that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere.

Either such strict faith schools are abolished (some have been closed on grounds of miserably failing ofsted and Health &Safety but they spring up again illegally), or we put up with them.

The teacher has received a good pay out and if she is a qualified nursery teacher she'll soon find another job. I wonder why she chose to apply to work at that school in the first place.

I don't know where you live but I used to live in te QWembly areea and theer is quite a large Orthodox community there.

The children spoke English to a standard that the majority of non-Ortodox parents could only dream of, their academic standards were likewise on a par with some of the highest perfoirming Christian and non-religion-based schools.

They observed their rites without in any way inconveniencing their non-Jewish neighbours except, of course, there wwre far more seats free on the buses and trains in the area from Friday night to Saturday night.

Oh yes, and it was nice to be able to pick up a nice hot salt beef sandwich on tjne way to work of a morning.

Faith schools - shut 'em down? Only if they are teaching militant violence against other religions - and that does NOT apply to the ORTHODOX SCHOOLS. 

[Robbie]

Depends what you mean by "Orthodox", Owlswing; there are of course many very well educated orthodox Jews and excellent schools.

However I was speaking about distinct communities, or sects, such as Haredi and Lubavitchers which are fairly exclusive. Stamford Hill is one well known place where such communities live.

There is plenty of information about them on the 'net and it's very interesting indeed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8326339/Inside-the-private-world-of-Londons-ultra-Orthodox-Jews.html

Education:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-0354-4_58

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/global/uk/3-london-haredi-schools-reopen-in-defiance-of-education-authority/2017/07/07/

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21654102-attention-falls-little-known-growing-group-britains-jews-shtetls-mind


(NB They do not like being described as "Ultra-Orthodox")

[Owlswing]

Depends what you mean by "Orthodox", Owlswing; there are of course many very well educated orthodox Jews and excellent schools.

However I was speaking about distinct communities, or sects, such as Haredi and Lubavitchers which are fairly exclusive. Stamford Hill is one well known place where such communities live.

There is plenty of information about them on the 'net and it's very interesting indeed.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8326339/Inside-the-private-world-of-Londons-ultra-Orthodox-Jews.html

Education:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-0354-4_58

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/global/uk/3-london-haredi-schools-reopen-in-defiance-of-education-authority/2017/07/07/

https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21654102-attention-falls-little-known-growing-group-britains-jews-shtetls-mind


(NB They do not like being described as "Ultra-Orthodox")

It's OK Robbie, I know a fair amount about the various scts existing in Jewery, in fact, probably more than you.

[Robbie]

Probably so. I was only discussing, thought it was an interesting topic.

[Owlswing]

Probably so. I was only discussing, thought it was an interesting topic.

Discussing . . . hmm.

Some of your comments wwere rather unkind, shall we say.

Yes, the Orthodox (and the Ulta-Orthodox) stick rigidly to their rules, but they do not advocate murder, of anyone, neither do they try to convert others, unlike more than a few on this forum.

And if you want to see 'turning the other cheek' watch what they do, or don't do,when the do when some non-Jews laugh at or verbally abuse them for their curls.

[Robbie]

Discussing . . . hmm.

Some of your comments wwere rather unkind, shall we say.

Yes, the Orthodox (and the Ulta-Orthodox) stick rigidly to their rules, but they do not advocate murder, of anyone, neither do they try to convert others, unlike more than a few on this forum.

And if you want to see 'turning the other cheek' watch what they do, or don't do,when the do when some non-Jews laugh at or verbally abuse them for their curls.

What on earth have I said that is unkind? I have the greatest respect for the people we are talking about, admire them even and like the fact that there are people like them living here. I don't know what I've done or said that's wrong, only gave facts.

Gosh you are cross again and this time with me.

It is possible to talk about a people different to our own, finding things interesting, without any animosity or patronage you know. 

Wish I hadn't said anything now.

[Owlswing]

What on earth have I said that is unkind? I have the greatest respect for the people we are talking about, admire them even and like the fact that there are people like them living here. I don't know what I've done or said that's wrong, only gave facts.

Gosh you are cross again and this time with me.

It is possible to talk about a people different to our own, finding things interesting, without any animosity or patronage you know. 

Wish I hadn't said anything now.

Quote from 05.12.2016 18:26

Either schools like the Gan Menachim Nursery School are closed and forced to be in line with other schools in this country or left alone. My view is that a teacher's private life is private but in that particularly Orthodox Jewish society, conformity is considered to be essential. None of the schools run by the Hassidic, Haredi and similar others have much in common with non-faith schools - kids leave school barely able to write a proper sentence in English - but people outside the groups have accepted that for years & left them alone because the communities are quite well respected, self regulating and cause no trouble. So they can't complain if a school makes a decision about a teacher that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere.

Either such strict faith schools are abolished (some have been closed on grounds of miserably failing ofsted and Health &Safety but they spring up again illegally), or we put up with them.

The teacher has received a good pay out and if she is a qualified nursery teacher she'll soon find another job. I wonder why she chose to apply to work at that school in the first place.

End quote

You don't consider the highlighted passages unkind?

I'm not cross, believe me you would know it if I were.

I just cannot understand your vehemence against faith schools where the students are not in physical or moral danger.

They are not, to my knowledge, beaten or sexually assaulted, they are not taught to hate and that any who are not Orthodox must be killed.

I do agree with you that faith schools, ALL faith schools, Christian (of all stripes, Catholic, Protestant etc), Jewish, Muslim etc should be closed down and that ALL children should be taught that ALL religions are faith not fact.

My own chldren have made their own choices, my ex is born-gain Christian, I am Pagan, my son is, in all probability, one of the most complete atheists on the planet and both my daughters are Pagan, to the horror of my ex and without any pressure from me having rejected their mother's Christianity after the divorce and I had left the family home.

You will find that, on more than one occasion, I have stated my view of 'faith not fact' in arguments with the most dyed-in-the-wool Christians here, Sassy, Hope (now departed), Vlad etc on the ground that I cannot and have never tried to claim any proof of the existence of my deities.

No, I am not cross, I do get cross when people who know S F A about Paganism and/or the Craft start to take the p**s.

No, I'm not cross, the only other thing that gets me cross are Holocaust deniers and that is because the vast mnajority of my forebears on my mother's side died in Auschwitz. Yes, I was boirn Jewish.

No, Robbie, I am not cross at or with you.

Bright Blessings

)O(     

[Robbie]

I don't want to prolong this Owl, and am sure you don't,  unless someone else wants to discuss.  Sorry you think it was unkind of me to say:-
None of the schools run by the Hassidic, Haredi and similar others have much in common with non-faith schools - kids leave school barely able to write a proper sentence in English -
which was not meant scathingly but just stating a fact; they themselves believe the sort of secular education that others have is not for them and highly prize scholarship in Torah and Talmud.
I did go on to say:-
but people outside the groups have accepted that for years & left them alone because the communities are quite well respected, self regulating and cause no trouble. So they can't complain if a school makes a decision about a teacher that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere.

I am in favour of people doing their own thing as long as there is no abuse, which is not a popular stance.
The 'ultra-Orthodox' Jews (my words, i know they don't like that label), have suffered enough and believe that keeping their traditions is what helped them survive persecution. You, knowing them, probably already know that.
I think that is why they are generally left alone and most are happy to conform. 
(Some don't and that's where society at large needs to offer help.)

I also said:-
Either such strict faith schools are abolished (some have been closed on grounds of miserably failing ofsted and Health &Safety but they spring up again illegally), or we put up with them.

I would accept them. My view on the sacked teacher is that she must've known what she was getting into and has done OK out of the school. She could have worked somewhere else and probably already is doing so.

My values are not such that I would impose on others - but would provide a safety net for anyone in difficulty.

[Owlswing]

I don't want to prolong this Owl, and am sure you don't,  unless someone else wants to discuss.  Sorry you think it was unkind of me to say:-
None of the schools run by the Hassidic, Haredi and similar others have much in common with non-faith schools - kids leave school barely able to write a proper sentence in English -
which was not meant scathingly but just stating a fact; they themselves believe the sort of secular education that others have is not for them and highly prize scholarship in Torah and Talmud.
I did go on to say:-
but people outside the groups have accepted that for years & left them alone because the communities are quite well respected, self regulating and cause no trouble. So they can't complain if a school makes a decision about a teacher that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere.

I am in favour of people doing their own thing as long as there is no abuse, which is not a popular stance.
The 'ultra-Orthodox' Jews (my words, i know they don't like that label), have suffered enough and believe that keeping their traditions is what helped them survive persecution. You, knowing them, probably already know that.
I think that is why they are generally left alone and most are happy to conform. 
(Some don't and that's where society at large needs to offer help.)

I also said:-
Either such strict faith schools are abolished (some have been closed on grounds of miserably failing ofsted and Health &Safety but they spring up again illegally), or we put up with them.

I would accept them. My view on the sacked teacher is that she must've known what she was getting into and has done OK out of the school. She could have worked somewhere else and probably already is doing so.

My values are not such that I would impose on others - but would provide a safety net for anyone in difficulty.

Quits? Or fainites/vainites or whatever the expression at school was ?

[Robbie]

Pax

[Owlswing]

Pax

I can live with that!

BB

)O(

[floo]

I do have some sympathy with the school here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jewish-teacher-zelda-de-groen-orthodox-gan-menachem-nursery-hendon-north-london-wedlock-employment-a8090471.html

It is none of the school's business!

[Shaker]

It is none of the school's business!

It's akin those stories that crop up from time to time about companies that try to interfere in an employee's private life with regard to smoking and so forth. Equally pernicious.

[Walter]

Mr Owl

Instead of getting angry why don't you go and relax in the deep dark greenwood instead

Just sayin....