Feminist comediennes banned from facebook

[Sriram]

What is wrong with the word 'actress'?!  It is a legitimate word in the dictionary..... 

Actor (Male)...Actor (Female)...rubbish!! 

[Shaker]

What is wrong with the word 'actress'?!

It needlessly distinguishes on the grounds of sex something that has nothing to do with sex.

It is a legitimate word in the dictionary..... 

Plenty of words are in the dictionary that you wouldn't care to be called.

Actor (Male)...Actor (Female)...rubbish!!  

I'll take your opinion seriously when it's worth something.

https://tinyurl.com/y9vbcjsp

[Sriram]

So what if it distinguishes?  Distinguishing is not discrimination!

[Shaker]

So what if it distinguishes?

What point does so distinguishing serve? What's it for? What does it do?

Distinguishing is not discrimination!

But frequently is.

[Sriram]

Don't be silly Shaker!   In that case all gender distinguishing features in all languages should be removed.  Like they did in some school...everyone should be referred to as 'Hen' or something.   LOL!!!!

[Shaker]

Don't be silly Shaker!

You first. 

In that case all gender distinguishing features in all languages should be removed. Like they did in some school...everyone should be referred to as 'Hen' or something.   LOL!!!!

I've no opinion in particular on that as while I've heard of it, I don't know enough about it. In any case it's irrelevant to the point that there's no need to distinguish between actors on the grounds of sex any more than there is between doctors or teachers. 

[jeremyp]

Circular argument. That's merely because of the Academy's continued insistence on using the word 'actress', not a justification that they're right to do so. It's an is but not an ought. Simple solution - don't. Best Actor Oscar covers everyone. Job done.

No, it's because there is a continued insistence by Hollywood that there be separate categories for male and female actors.

Like Hamlet, for instance?

Hamlet has been played by women several times as far as I'm aware. However, it is still much more common to want to cast a man in the role, or a woman in the role of Ophelia.

You're doing a sterling job of making my case for me. Why is it a landmark? Casting of the what?

A female actor aka actress.

A particular what?

It says right there. Also see the first post in this thread.

[jeremyp]

In any case it's irrelevant to the point that there's no need to distinguish between actors on the grounds of sex

Except that sometimes there is.

[Robbie]

Definitely there are times when the sex of an actor needs to be known (Lady Macbeth for example), but think their CV plus photograph would show that.

[jeremyp]

Definitely there are times when the sex of an actor needs to be known (Lady Macbeth for example), but think their CV plus photograph would show that.

Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?

What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)

[Shaker]

No, it's because there is a continued insistence by Hollywood that there be separate categories for male and female actors.

Which demonstrates nothing but the fact that Hollywood needs to get its act together in more ways than one. 

Hamlet has been played by women several times as far as I'm aware. However, it is still much more common to want to cast a man in the role, or a woman in the role of Ophelia.

So it's more common. Sorry, I'm not dazzled by the force of your argument yet.

A female actor aka actress.

The 'female' is redundant.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?

What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)

I think you have to be careful of seeing everything that is an analogy as the same. Part of the issue with major roles with a race aspect is that they were predominantly played by people who were blacked/browned up. I noted on the Shashi Kapoor thread that I went to a Q&A at the Glasgow Film theatre with Felicity Kendal. She was touring in Othello as Desdemona playing opposite Paul Schofield who blacked up and did a CampDown Ladies minstrel accent.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think you have to be careful of seeing everything that is an analogy as the same. Part of the issue with major roles with a race aspect is that they were predominantly played by people who were blacked/browned up. I noted on the Shashi Kapoor thread that I went to a Q&A at the Glasgow Film theatre with Felicity Kendal. She was touring in Othello as Desdemona playing opposite Paul Schofield who blacked up and did a CampDown Ladies minstrel accent.

Is it necessary to know the gender of the CampDown ladies?

[Shaker]

Not when the song is called Camptown Races, no

[Nearly Sane]

Not when the song is called Camptown Races, no

Nor is it a relevant correction.

[Owlswing]

Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?

What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)

I have to assume that you are acting like an idiot, 'cos I'm damn sure you're not one.

If you are casting Lady Macbeth or Othello, unless you stipulate otherwise 99.99% of the acting profession will not need to be advised which sex applicants are required.

I would also lay bets that even MTF or FTM, respectively, applicants, if their acting was up to the level required, would be welcomed to audition with open arms and probably without questions.

[Nearly Sane]

In ninety nine times out of a hundred - you don't.

And by the way, you mean "sex" not "gender".

(Off topic and not (I hope) a derail, but Vlad has now had more reincarnations than Dr Who.)

I know that it makes sense here to say that sex is what is meant rather than gender but surely male/female acting roles given their fluidity are a gender construct rather than a sex one?

[Robbie]

Yes but if you are advertising for the role of Lady Macbeth, wouldn't you say "only female actors need apply"? Or if you were planning a gender reversed version of Macbeth (and why not?) wouldn't you say "only male actors need apply"?

Yes I would.

What about Othello? It is an intrinsic part of the character that he is black. Wouldn't you advertise only for black male actors unless you want to run the gauntlet of putting a white actor in blackface? (I saw the Orson Welles Othello as part of my Eng. Lit. O Level and it was, frankly, embarrassing, even back in the 80's, even in black and white.)

Yes I would to your first para.
Re your second paragraph, I too would have been acutely embarrassed but fact is many white actors played Othello including Olivier. 

Hugh Quarshie turned down the role of Othello on the grounds it was tokenism and patronage.
Can't win really.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes I would.

Yes I would to your first para.
Re your second paragraph, I too would have been acutely embarrassed but fact is many white actors played Othello including Olivier. 

Hugh Quarshie turned down the role of Othello on the grounds it was tokenism and patronage.
Can't win really.

I think playing Othello if you aren't black is fine in many ways, as long as you don't do the blacking up and weird accent. I'm not really sure who 'can't win' in your comment.

And actors of a different race have an equal chance to be cast as Hamlet as Olivier or Jackson

[Shaker]

I think playing Othello if you aren't black is fine in many ways, as long as you don't do the blacking up and weird accent. I'm not really sure who 'can't win' in your comment.

Anyone who just wants a good actor to get on and give a fine performance of Othello, I suspect.

White actors have blacked up and been slaughtered for it (Oliver's monumentally hammy eye-rolling Othello was notoriously reviewed in one headline as 'Hello Golly') whereas at least one black actor has turned down the role, deeming it tokenism.

[Robbie]

People stipulating the requirement of a particular sex of an acting professional, or a comic, can't win whether they say "actor/actress' or 'comedian/comedienne'.

I will ask some people younger than myself what they feel about this issue.

[Nearly Sane]

People stipulating the requirement of a particular sex of an acting professional, or a comic, can't win whether they say "actor/actress' or 'comedian/comedienne'.

I will ask some people younger than myself what they feel about this issue.

Why can't they 'win'? I am sorry but I really am at a loss what you are trying to say. What is it that you see as a problem? Note I am not saying there isn't one, just not sure what you think is the problem.

[Shaker]

Why can't they 'win'? I am sorry but I really am at a loss what you are trying to say. What is it that you see as a problem? Note I am not saying there isn't one, just not sure what you think is the problem.

Perhaps it's that people who think they're doing the right thing by being inclusive in using gender-neutral terms don't know where to stand when they read comments such as those provided in a link earlier from a female actor who says that the term actress has been hard won and should be celebrated.

[Robbie]

Exactly, Shaker.

[Shaker]

Thought so