Remove this painting?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Is this so disturbing that it should be removed from public display?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/04/arts/met-museum-balthus-painting-girl.html

To my eye a far more disturbing work is this:

https://pksupernovel.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/headless-women.png?w=640

[Shaker]

I'm not a big fan of censorship, so leave things be.

[Owlswing]

Is this so disturbing that it should be removed from public display?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/04/arts/met-museum-balthus-painting-girl.html

To my eye a far more disturbing work is this:

https://pksupernovel.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/headless-women.png?w=640

Agreed.

In a lot of these cases the protest says far more about the protester than about whatever it is that they are protesting about.

[Owlswing]

I'm not a big fan of censorship, so leave things be.

Also agreed, but I would say that, in this case, were the model not wearing underwear it would be a different matter.

[Nearly Sane]

Balthus is famous/notorious for this sort of issue - have a look at The Guitar Lesson and see what you think. I think it should remain but it's far from a simple case. It's difficult to have a simple policy of what is/is not acceptable - there are many renaissance paintings that are questionable on this approach.

[Rhiannon]

Teenagers are sexualised in our culture. One painting isn't going to make a huge difference.

[Nearly Sane]

Teenagers are sexualised in our culture. One painting isn't going to make a huge difference.

Though if it's shown in a major gallery, there's an argument that it validates it in a way some other apsects don't.

[Owlswing]

Balthus is famous/notorious for this sort of issue - have a look at The Guitar Lesson and see what you think. I think it should remain but it's far from a simple case. It's difficult to have a simple policy of what is/is not acceptable - there are many renaissance paintings that are questionable on this approach.

Certainly the Guitar Lesson is an extreme example and, to my mind the only feature of note is that both participants are female and the child's left hand would suggest an active participation on her part.

That said, I would agree that public exhibition of this work would be a better candidate for protest than Thérèse Dreaming.

[Shaker]

This reminds me of the Graham Ovenden case.

Ovenden was known for executing (technically highly accomplished) drawings and paintings of prepubescent girls. To my eyes at least they don't come across as overtly sexualized - I wouldn't put them in the category of erotica - but it seems that the artist thought of them in such a way since a few years ago he was convicted and sentenced to two years in choky for a number of sexual offences against underage girls (the specifics are of course online, starting with his Wikipedia page). The judge ordered that Ovenden's photographs and sketches which were preparatory materials for the finished artwork be destroyed.

When I used to watch The Wright Stuff occasionally around this time Matthew Wright used to pose the question, would anyone then, knowing what they know of Ovenden, still have his other artwork - landscapes and still lives for instance - on their walls. His insinuation and implication was heavily in favour of the view that nobody should - although in the case of his landscapes I would since to me (subjective aesthetic opinion alert) I think his soft, hazy, dream-like landscapes are strikingly beautiful:

https://tinyurl.com/yb5n3v6o

Striking out these because of the artist's unacceptable sexual orientation seems a step too far for me - this argument of course goes back to Wagner and Caravaggio and doubtless earlier.

[Owlswing]

This reminds me of the Graham Ovenden case.

Ovenden was known for executing (technically highly accomplished) drawings and paintings of prepubescent girls. To my eyes at least they don't come across as overtly sexualized - I wouldn't put them in the category of erotica - but it seems that the artist thought of them in such a way since a few years ago he was convicted and sentenced to two years in choky for a number of sexual offences against underage girls (the specifics are of course online, starting with his Wikipedia page). The judge ordered that Ovenden's photographs and sketches which were preparatory materials for the finished artwork be destroyed.

When I used to watch The Wright Stuff occasionally around this time Matthew Wright used to pose the question, would anyone then, knowing what they know of Ovenden, still have his other artwork - landscapes and still lives for instance - on their walls. His insinuation and implication was heavily in favour of the view that nobody should - although in the case of his landscapes I would since to me (subjective aesthetic opinion alert) I think his soft, hazy, dream-like landscapes are strikingly beautiful:

https://tinyurl.com/yb5n3v6o

Striking out these because of the artist's unacceptable sexual orientation seems a step too far for me - this argument of course back to Wagner and Caravaggio and doubtless earlier.

Agreed.

[Robbie]

I can't see anything controversial in either picture.

I know the title of the following has made kids giggle, thinking it was about someone 'going to the toilet':  http://tinyurl.com/ycf7sbbj

[Sebastian Toe]

I can't see anything controversial in either picture.

I know the title of the following has made kids giggle, thinking it was about someone 'going to the toilet':
http://tinyurl.com/ycf7sbbj

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

[Robbie]

There was nothing on your link, Seb.
The 'Guitar Lesson' is a bit strong! Doesn't have much to do with guitar lessons, more like kiddy porn.
However I can't see anything wrong with 'Therese Dreaming'.
I had a second look at the other one in the op and don't understand why the woman has one boob popped out.

[Nearly Sane]

There was nothing on your link, Seb.
The 'Guitar Lesson' is a bit strong! Doesn't have much to do with guitar lessons, more like kiddy porn.

It was a link to tinyurl to make your link shorter. Given it was brought to the mods attention I did that for you.

[Shaker]

There was nothing on your link, Seb.

He was trying to tell you to shorten the inordinately long link you posted earlier - which I see one of The Management has now done.

[Robbie]

Oh right.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

There was nothing on your link, Seb.
The 'Guitar Lesson' is a bit strong! Doesn't have much to do with guitar lessons, more like kiddy porn.

Not so sure about kiddy porn as such, to my eye it looks like bad taste BDSM porn, An ugly image.

However I can't see anything wrong with 'Therese Dreaming'.

Neither can I, to my eye it could perhaps be the last truly childhood dream she has before adolescence hits.

I had a second look at the other one in the op and don't understand why the woman has one boob popped out.

At first glance, this is just a child playing in a nursery. But as you look closer, you notice that she has one single breast, why is it showing? It is not innocent, nor sensual, nor motherly. And who is the man trapped in the cage? And what is with the clowns head that she is playing with? Then you notice that her face no longer looks innocent, it looks more and more sinister.

TBH I recommend reading a professional art critic's opinion of this work. FTR I am glad that I have my mind, not that of Max Ernst. Yes he was a genius, but boy did he have some problems.

[Robbie]

Perhaps he found it therapeutic to put the darkest bits lurking in his psyche on canvass.

[Owlswing]

Perhaps he found it therapeutic to put the darkest bits lurking in his psyche on canvass.

He wouldn't be the first, nor yet, I suspect, the last to do so.

[Robbie]

Hello Nightowl. 
I agree that art is very therapeutic, it's certainly my therapy and I love expressing myself in that way.

[Owlswing]

Hello Nightowl. 

I agree that art is very therapeutic, it's certainly my therapy and I love expressing myself in that way.

That's "Bleedin' Insomniac Owl" if you don't mind!

I regret that my artistic endeavours never got past stick figures; according to my younger daughter her father is terminally incapable of drawing a straight line with a ruler or a wiggly one with a corkscrew. This is, I regret to say, a painfully accurate assessment of my artistic abilities made all the more painful by the fact that she is a very good Manga artist.

I tend to follow the route of writing things down (typing them on a computer) and filing them away and it is amazing how some of my skeletons pop up again and again after remaining dormant for a year or do. The beauty of this is, of course, that I can use all the language that would get me banned from here instanta.

[Robbie]

Manga art is quite something. My nephew is an art student (I think his course is Fine Art & Design ), he has told me a bit about Manga which is very popular & originated in Japan apparently.

I too write things down and come across it years later  .

[Rhiannon]

My daughter is a huge anime fan (Attack on Titan, Death Note etc) and draws manga - she’s brilliant at it.

[Owlswing]

Manga art is quite something. My nephew is an art student (I think his course is Fine Art & Design ), he has told me a bit about Manga which is very popular & originated in Japan apparently.

I too write things down and come across it years later  .

Question for both you, Robbie, and also for Rhiannon

Do you know what the difference is between Manga, Anime and Hentai?

[Rhiannon]

Question for both you, Robbie, and also for Rhiannon

Do you know what the difference is between Manga, Anime and Hentai?

Manga - printed cartoons in books/magazines

Anime - animation, films

Hentai - lets not go there