Author Topic: A pagan vindicated?  (Read 17385 times)

Owlswing

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A pagan vindicated?
« on: December 07, 2017, 11:23:00 PM »

The Pope is trying to change the Lord's Prayer saying it makes it look like God is "leading us into temptation".

It's taken how long for the Church to wake up to this and I, personally, have been subjected to chorus of denial from the Christians on this forum telling me how wrong I am for saying exactly the same thing!


https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/889365/Pope-Francis-Jesus-Lords-Prayer-Bible-God-Catholic-scripture-religion-christianity
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Maeght

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2017, 02:23:22 AM »

...... and I, personally, have been subjected to chorus of denial from the Christians on this forum telling me how wrong I am for saying exactly the same thing.

I hadn't notice you say the translation of the Lord's Prayer us a bad one. When did you say that?

Owlswing

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2017, 02:49:49 AM »

I hadn't notice you say the translation of the Lord's Prayer us a bad one. When did you say that?


I didn't! That was Sassy et al.

What I said was that the Bible said that God intended to lead people into temptation; why, otherwise, would they need to ask him not to.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2017, 03:42:21 AM »

I didn't! That was Sassy et al.

What I said was that the Bible said that God intended to lead people into temptation; why, otherwise, would they need to ask him not to.


Further to the above - Sassy, in particular, and others have argued that the quoted passage is a mis-translation going back to the year Dot almost.

My argument was, and is, that the translation error has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that millions upon millions of Christian kids, from the first day they are sent to Sunday School or church, are taught the Lord's Prayer including the line asking God not to "lead us not into temptation".

The matter of a possible translation error would not be discussed at any level of schooling before, as far as I am aware, a University degree course in Divinity or Theology, a bit late to change the perception of all those Christian kids who will never get within a hundred miles of such a course.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Maeght

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2017, 07:50:26 AM »
So not exactly the same thing then, but similar theme. Do you have a link to the discussion as sounds an interesting one?

Owlswing

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2017, 08:21:22 AM »

So not exactly the same thing then, but similar theme. Do you have a link to the discussion as sounds an interesting one?


I haven't it was one of those interminable things where every objec tion to the accepted version was dismissed 'cos "You (me) don't know your (my) bible!"
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Maeght

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 08:24:29 AM »
I haven't it was one of those interminable things where every objec tion to the accepted version was dismissed 'cos "You (me) don't know your (my) bible!"

Ah ok, shame.

Owlswing

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 08:38:53 AM »

Ah ok, shame.


Give me ten minutes and I'll try and look through my posts history to try and find something.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 10:42:09 AM »

Shaker

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 10:43:12 AM »
I'm not wholly convinced it's unintended.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 10:48:11 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/08/lead-us-not-into-mistranslation-pope-wants-lords-prayer-changed

Love the unintended hilarity of the last line of this.
Agree witb Shaker that it might well be intended. I got thrown a bit because the quote 'A Father doesn't do tgst' triggetrd off Luck Be a Lady in my head.

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 10:55:16 AM »
Agree witb Shaker that it might well be intended. I got thrown a bit because the quote 'A Father doesn't do tgst' triggetrd off Luck Be a Lady in my head.

 :D

Anchorman

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 10:55:56 AM »
"Leadu us not into temptation" might me poetical, but it isn't accurate. Probably the best translation from the Koine would be something like "Do not bring us to the test" or "Preserve us from hard testing". Jacobean English, eh?
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 11:01:13 AM »
"Leadu us not into temptation" might me poetical, but it isn't accurate. Probably the best translation from the Koine would be something like "Do not bring us to the test" or "Preserve us from hard testing". Jacobean English, eh?

Still not a very cuddly, loving daddy thing though, is it?

Anchorman

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 11:10:40 AM »
Dunno, Rhi: "Do not bring us to the test, but remove us from evil" seems OK to me.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Udayana

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2017, 11:21:49 AM »
Seems to have the same implication - these tests (temptations) are set up by the god being prayed to.

ie. an echo of Floo's "if there is a biblical god it must be evil"


Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2017, 11:30:59 AM »
Dunno, Rhi: "Do not bring us to the test, but remove us from evil" seems OK to me.

This is getting into Job territory, surely - please don't do horrible things that will test my faith?

Nearly Sane

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 11:36:32 AM »
This is getting into Job territory, surely - please don't do horrible things that will test my faith?
'Although you might choose to be a bastard, please, pretty please, three times with sprinkles, don't be a bastard.'

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2017, 11:39:20 AM »
'Although you might choose to be a bastard, please, pretty please, three times with sprinkles, don't be a bastard.'

It's all part of God's perfect plan, NS....

Nearly Sane

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2017, 11:43:25 AM »
It's all part of God's perfect plan, NS....
Prayer is just a weird idea if you have an omni god.

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 12:01:11 PM »
Prayer is just a weird idea if you have an omni god.

Maybe not if you have an omni god who likes to pick and choose who gets the answers that they want. A god with NPD.

It's a weird idea if you have a loving god though, certainly.

Nearly Sane

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 12:06:50 PM »
Maybe not if you have an omni god who likes to pick and choose who gets the answers that they want. A god with NPD.

It's a weird idea if you have a loving god though, certainly.
But if it's omni, it choose to make you pray, and knew you would and will then do the thing it was always going to do.

With a loving god, it has many problems.

Rhiannon

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 12:08:43 PM »
But if it's omni, it choose to make you pray, and knew you would and will then do the thing it was always going to do.

With a loving god, it has many problems.

Nooo, because I have free will...oh hang on...

Anchorman

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 01:37:22 PM »
This is getting into Job territory, surely - please don't do horrible things that will test my faith?
     
Why should it be 'faith' which is tested?
I see no mention of faith in this passage....

"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Owlswing

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Re: A pagan vindicated?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 05:31:43 PM »

"Lead us not into temptation" might be poetical, but it isn't accurate. Probably the best translation from the Koine would be something like "Do not bring us to the test" or "Preserve us from hard testing". Jacobean English, eh?


MAEGHT

This is almost word for word what I was talking about and is also almost pure Sassy trying to wriggle out of the current version!

It is interesting to note that it is a bloody long time since Jacobean English was used in this country!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!