Mind and Brain

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Traditionally, in all societies around the world, the Mind has  been considered as separate from the Brain/Body.  The Mind has been linked with the Soul which leaves the body after death. The body has been regarded only as a vehicle or a cocoon in which the soul and Mind are housed. 

Nowadays only that which can be sensed through our senses and instruments are regarded as part of reality. It is not fashionable to believe in things like the soul or spirit.  It is therefore normally assumed that the Mind is only a product of the electrical and chemical reactions in the brain. People are peering deeper and deeper into the brain to understand the Mind.

There is no doubt that the brain plays a very important part in the functioning of the Mind. That is not under dispute. If the brain is damaged or hindered in any way, the Mind is affected.  But this does not automatically mean that the Mind is only a product of the brain.

There are several reasons to believe that the Mind is independent of the brain while admittedly the brain is used as a platform for the Mind.  This can be analogous to a computer system where the Hardware and Software function together though they are essentially different.

Just as software has many levels beginning with Machine Code, Assembler language, compilers and so on leading to various portable higher level software.....the  Mind also has several layers some of which could be connected to the brain and endocrine system. Other higher  layers could be  independent of the brain and body.

Obviously these are very  complex matters that are not likely to be understood in very clear and comprehensive terms. However, we can make an attempt at some broad based concepts.

In the linked article I have highlighted many reasons to believe that the Mind is independent of the brain.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/mind-and-brain/

Anyone who is interested could go through it and offer their comments here....or just offer their independent views.

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Please avoid the usual demand for  'Proof' or 'Evidence'.   We are discussing abstract and philosophical matters.... not Physics.

[floo]

How can the mind be separate to the brain when without a brain we are dead?

[Stranger]

This can be analogous to a computer system where the Hardware and Software function together though they are essentially different.

Just as software has many levels beginning with Machine Code, Assembler language, compilers and so on leading to various portable higher level software.....the  Mind also has several layers some of which could be connected to the brain and endocrine system. Other higher  layers could be  independent of the brain and body.

Leaving aside your complete misunderstanding of how software is structured, the analogy with hardware-software is well known (and of limited applicability) but why would you assume that there is any additional 'hardware' - why should any of it be "independent of the brain and body"?

Of course, you could say that the higher level systems of the brain - the cultural items or memes - are 'independent' in the sense that they can be 'installed' and 'executed' on most brains (this is actually very close to Dennett's ideas) but there is no need for dualism. A word processor can run on any compatible computer, but the computer doesn't have a dual nature, it is still just a physical object.

PS: Please avoid the usual demand for  'Proof' or 'Evidence'.   We are discussing abstract and philosophical matters.... not Physics.

Ultimately, if your ideas are to be accepted, you will need to make concrete predictions so that they can be distinguished from guessing but, let's take a look at what you've said on its own merits.

Looking at your 'basic reasons' for dualism...

a)The brain did not create itself. It is obviously just a product of our stem cells and DNA. If we have to classify any part of the human anatomy as ‘Intelligent’ and ‘self willed’, it has to be our DNA and not the brain.

Non sequitur.

b) The brain does not function independently of the total human anatomy and physiology. Without the other organs in the body, the brain cannot function at all. If other vital organs fail, the brain will also die. Since the brain did not create the complex human system and was only produced as a part of the total system, there has to be an agency independent of the system that decides its role in the system.

That would be the same 'agency' that 'decides' the role of any part of any living thing: evolution by natural selection.

c) Our emotions are not generated by the brain. The endocrine system consisting of various glands, largely governs our feelings and emotions. In other words, the endocrine system forms a vital part of our ‘mind’ and ‘personality’. The brain only coordinates the functioning of this system and receives inputs from it.  It does not generate these emotions. The nerves centered around the stomach are sometimes referred to as a second brain because they play a very important role in generating emotions.

The endocrine system's role isn't really news but I fail to see how this supports dualism.

The next bit is really rather amusing. You spend some time talking about how the brain changes as we learn things, then we get,

These instances show that the brain does not decide our abilities and skills, rather, our exposure, experiences and training decide how the brain should be structured and developed. The brain in fact, remains largely plastic and pliable to adapt to our environmental requirements.

and you conclude with

In other words, the mind and thought processes that interact with the environment, actually determine how the brain should be structured and internally connected. If the mind is entirely a product of the brain, this would not be possible.

Which is another non sequitur. The simple explanation that the brain/mind learns from its experiences and hence changes, seems to have not occurred to you.

You really do need to think things through a bit more carefully.

[Sriram]

How can the mind be separate to the brain when without a brain we are dead?

? ? ? ?

[SusanDoris]

Stranger

I shooke my head and sighed when I saw the topic title and did not bother to read the OP. Thank goodness for your response - at least if browsers read, they will see good sense very close to the OP!

[torridon]

There are several reasons to believe that the Mind is independent of the brain while admittedly the brain is used as a platform for the Mind.  This can be analogous to a computer system where the Hardware and Software function together though they are essentially different.

Just as software has many levels beginning with Machine Code, Assembler language, compilers and so on leading to various portable higher level software.....the  Mind also has several layers some of which could be connected to the brain and endocrine system. Other higher  layers could be  independent of the brain and body.

Explore the limits of that analogy.  For a start, software is not 'animate' when not running; on the other hand, Mind, is considered to be essentially animate.  Mind, we could say,  consists of thoughts.  What would a mind that was independent of brain think about, and how would it think ?

[Stranger]

I shooke my head and sighed when I saw the topic title and did not bother to read the OP. Thank goodness for your response - at least if browsers read, they will see good sense very close to the OP!

Thank you Susan. Doesn't look like Sriram was all that interested in comments after all. Can't say I'm surprised.

[jeremyp]

For a start, software is not 'animate' when not running; on the other hand, Mind, is considered to be essentially animate. 

What do you mean by animate? To me, an animate mind is analogous to software that is running. In fact, it is not just analogous, it is software that is running in the brain.

[Keith Maitland]

Sriram,


Three questions.


1) Do you believe that most of our mental life, including most of our emotional life, is unconscious at any given moment?


2) Do you believe that the instincts for aggressive and for sexual strivings, like the instincts to eat and drink, are built into the human psyche, into our genome?


3) Do you believe that normal mental life and mental illness form a continuum?

[Sriram]

Sriram,


Three questions.


1) Do you believe that most of our mental life, including most of our emotional life, is unconscious at any given moment?


2) Do you believe that the instincts for aggressive and for sexual strivings, like the instincts to eat and drink, are built into the human psyche, into our genome?


3) Do you believe that normal mental life and mental illness form a continuum?

Hi Keith,

1. It is believed that our Unconscious Mind constitutes the major part of our mind and the Conscious part is only a relatively minor part.  In fact the Unconscious Mind is believed to make most of our decisions seconds before our Conscious Mind is even aware of it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

The Conscious Mind is said to be like a broom closet in the Mansion of the Unconscious Mind.   

From a BBC article:

"The more we probe the brain’s workings, the more we realise that our conscious minds are really just a summary of what our brains get up to all the time – without “us” having any idea. As Eagleman puts it, “The conscious you, which is the part that flickers to life when you wake up in the morning, is the smallest bit of what’s happening in your head.

“It’s like a broom closet in the mansion of the brain.”


2. Of course aggression and other 'survival tools' are a part of our psyche and natural instincts. Aggression is basically a form of self preservation. 'Offence is the best form of defense'.  How could any species survive without self preservation and Procreation instinct?  You should also read up on the Triune Brain.

3. Abnormal mental behavior has to be an aberration...though what is normal and what is abnormal can be debated. I however don't think they are a continuum....meaning that the 'abnormal' mental state does not automatically follow from the  'normal' mental state.  I don't think it is a spectrum.

One of the striking features of our mind is its ability to adapt and fit into any given environment, however hostile. This is what I would call 'normal'.  Abnormality could be a maladjustment and inability to adapt.

Cheers.

Sriram


 

[Sriram]

Explore the limits of that analogy.  For a start, software is not 'animate' when not running; on the other hand, Mind, is considered to be essentially animate.  Mind, we could say,  consists of thoughts.  What would a mind that was independent of brain think about, and how would it think ?

No. Any analogy should not be stretched beyond what it is trying to explain or illustrate.

I have no idea about the nature of the Mind or what it is made of and how it works etc. etc.  I am only trying to point out human experiences that seem to point to the Mind being independent of the brain and also controlling it in some instances. 

It is possible that Consciousness in some way uses the Mind (mental energies?), with the brain and body as a platform, to interact and experience the world.  The same way that we humans use Software, Hardware, electricity and the internet to explore, experience and interact with the world. 

[torridon]

What do you mean by animate? To me, an animate mind is analogous to software that is running. In fact, it is not just analogous, it is software that is running in the brain.

Yes, I'd agree that.  My comment was aimed at Sriram, and his contention that mind is like software running on the hardware of the brain thus allowing for a conceptual distinction between mind and brain.  Software is written independantly, I can cut some Python code and store it on a disk and run it on a variety of hardware platforms.  Not so with mind though, mind is not stored nor 'written' independently of the brain in which it occurs.  Superficial analogies are used to licence crazy beliefs.

[torridon]

No. Any analogy should not be stretched beyond what it is trying to explain or illustrate.

I have no idea about the nature of the Mind or what it is made of and how it works etc. etc.  I am only trying to point out human experiences that seem to point to the Mind being independent of the brain and also controlling it in some instances. 

It is possible that Consciousness in some way uses the Mind (mental energies?), with the brain and body as a platform, to interact and experience the world.  The same way that we humans use Software, Hardware, electricity and the internet to explore, experience and interact with the world.

You started out with 'Mind' and quickly moved to 'Consciousness'.  There is a difference between the two concepts.  Mind, I would say, is about the internal mental state of an individual brained organism. Consciousness is a phenomenon of mind.  I guess you'd like to claim that consciousness is a phenomenon of matter or a phenomenon of the universe, a slightly different concept again.  Science has been good at describing objective things to date, matter and energy, not so good at subjective things, mental states like consciousness.  Maybe it will require the realisation that the universe is sentient, in some fundamental sense, and just as matter under natural forces forms into pockets of increasing complexity, so pockets of high order sentience form similarly,  Brains are the complex matter structures that elicit high order sentience.

[Sriram]

You started out with 'Mind' and quickly moved to 'Consciousness'.  There is a difference between the two concepts.  Mind, I would say, is about the internal mental state of an individual brained organism. Consciousness is a phenomenon of mind.  I guess you'd like to claim that consciousness is a phenomenon of matter or a phenomenon of the universe, a slightly different concept again.  Science has been good at describing objective things to date, matter and energy, not so good at subjective things, mental states like consciousness.  Maybe it will require the realisation that the universe is sentient, in some fundamental sense, and just as matter under natural forces forms into pockets of increasing complexity, so pockets of high order sentience form similarly,  Brains are the complex matter structures that elicit high order sentience.

I have said clearly that Consciousness uses the Mind.   Obviously they are not the same. How did you imagine that I am equating the two?!

Consciousness is more fundamental. It is just the modern 'scientific' equivalent of the Spirit or soul. It is  the Self ...the subject...what WE are essentially. The User of the system. 

Consciousness is not a phenomenon of the Mind. Consciousness can exist without the Mind.  The whole idea of Mind control and mindfulness is about bringing the mind under the control of the Will and Consciousness.

[Shaker]

Well there's a shitload of assertions we won't see substantiated.

[torridon]

I have said clearly that Consciousness uses the Mind.   Obviously they are not the same. How did you imagine that I am equating the two?!

Consciousness is more fundamental. It is just the modern 'scientific' equivalent of the Spirit or soul. It is  the Self ...the subject...what WE are essentially. The User of the system. 

Consciousness is not a phenomenon of the Mind. Consciousness can exist without the Mind.  The whole idea of Mind control and mindfulness is about bringing the mind under the control of the Will and Consciousness.

Consciousness, to use the term correctly, is of course a phenomenon of mind.  Try going to sleep and waking up; your mind, which is always present, exhibits various stages and qualities of consciousness during those transitions corresponding to different levels of arousal.  Thus we can talk about subconscious mind and we can talk about conscious mind, but there is always mind in either scenario and at all stages in between.  Consciousness evolved in vertebrates in the PreCambrian, before that there was no mind and no consciousness in the universe to the best of our current knowledge.

[ippy]

Hi everyone,

Traditionally, in all societies around the world, the Mind has  been considered as separate from the Brain/Body.  The Mind has been linked with the Soul which leaves the body after death. The body has been regarded only as a vehicle or a cocoon in which the soul and Mind are housed. 

Nowadays only that which can be sensed through our senses and instruments are regarded as part of reality. It is not fashionable to believe in things like the soul or spirit.  It is therefore normally assumed that the Mind is only a product of the electrical and chemical reactions in the brain. People are peering deeper and deeper into the brain to understand the Mind.

There is no doubt that the brain plays a very important part in the functioning of the Mind. That is not under dispute. If the brain is damaged or hindered in any way, the Mind is affected.  But this does not automatically mean that the Mind is only a product of the brain.

There are several reasons to believe that the Mind is independent of the brain while admittedly the brain is used as a platform for the Mind.  This can be analogous to a computer system where the Hardware and Software function together though they are essentially different.

Just as software has many levels beginning with Machine Code, Assembler language, compilers and so on leading to various portable higher level software.....the  Mind also has several layers some of which could be connected to the brain and endocrine system. Other higher  layers could be  independent of the brain and body.

Obviously these are very  complex matters that are not likely to be understood in very clear and comprehensive terms. However, we can make an attempt at some broad based concepts.

In the linked article I have highlighted many reasons to believe that the Mind is independent of the brain.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/mind-and-brain/

Anyone who is interested could go through it and offer their comments here....or just offer their independent views.

Cheers.

Sriram

PS: Please avoid the usual demand for  'Proof' or 'Evidence'.   We are discussing abstract and philosophical matters.... not Physics.

Their's no need for anyone to comment on this post of yours Sriram, all you need to do is stay with this R & E forum and refer yourself to Alan Burns on the 'Searching for god' thread, he has all of the answers you could ever possibly need and they all come from the top authority on the subject, well so he tells us, a bit of advice you're truly welcome to.

Having said that my own very basic view is that the physical bodies we interact with in our every day life are merely life support vehicles for their brains, sets of integrated units, people, humans.

Regards ippy

[Robbie]

How mean ippy, I love Sririam's posts!

[ippy]

How mean ippy, I love Sririam's posts!

Just telling it like it is Rob, a pretty nutral comment really, well I thought so.

I don't dislike Sriram Rob, I just find I have to part company with anyone trying to portray fantacy land, whoever it happens to be trying to take us there.

Kind regards ippy

[Robbie]

I love the fantastic, ippy. When I paint, my mind travels to unknown and wondrous places.

Best regards to you too.

[ippy]

I love the fantastic, ippy. When I paint, my mind travels to unknown and wondrous places.

Best regards to you too.

Yes Rob, I'm really into art sculpture is really my thing, we, my wife and I went to Florence earlier on in the year, I didn't have to drag her there with me we're both artoholics, I've always wanted to see Dave, the real thing, he was jaw droppingly fabulous, the skill and craftmanship involved as well as the art wow, there were a few other arty farty bits there too, Durer I Love Durer's engravings.

Anyway now having seen some more of the world's highest forms of artistic acheivement, it reminds me of when that chap won the Turner prize with a light being switched on and off and he was given a few thousand quid prize money  for it, it puts me in mind of the gulf between David and switching a light on and off.

Likewise Sriram's posts, he does pick up some really good topics worthy of a really good discussion and then, before you can say knife he'll somehow start to bring in various forms of woo, reincarnation's a favourite and I find that equally and just as much of an indigestable gulf as there is between the artist and a so called artist I described previously.

I would add that there's a few members that post here that saden me with their, daft to me, belief in primitive and pointless nonsense of all sorts, it's their ideas I don't see eye to eye with, if I happened to meet them, we'd more than likely get along, I usually get along with most people, but there I don't do woo, can't be doing with it.

Kindest possible regards ippy

[Sriram]

How mean ippy, I love Sririam's posts!

Thanks Robbie. I am quite used to  the people here and their standard, almost automated, responses. 

But I like most of them in spite of their rather silly and myopic perceptions of life. Most of them seem to suffer from the Two Boxes syndrome of categorizing ideas either as Science or as 'Woo'....with no grey in between.  In my view reality is actually a wide spectrum ranging from the precise & measurable to the very subtle & incomprehensible.

That is why I keep trying to post my views here hoping that at least a few people would venture into the grey areas for a change.  But it often seems to be futile. 

You could try my blog if you are interested in reading similar thoughts.   

[Stranger]

Thanks Robbie. I am quite used to  the people here and their standard, almost automated, responses. 

And here we go with one of your standard, almost automated responses (it was bound to be either the "two boxes" or the "scepticism is an adolescent trait").

Most of them seem to suffer from the Two Boxes syndrome of categorizing ideas either as Science or as 'Woo'....with no grey in between.  In my view reality is actually a wide spectrum ranging from the precise & measurable to the very subtle & incomprehensible.

Your second sentence is true but has little to do with woo which is about beliefs that are held despite there being no supporting evidence or reasoning, or even in the face of contrary evidence or arguments. Woo doesn't let little things like logic, facts, and evidence stand in the way of what it wants to be true.

The first two 'basic reasons' from your blog post are classic woo 'arguments'. The first being an absurd bit of non-logic and the second ignoring a solid scientific explanation that is supported by copious evidence and then adding similar non-logic to round it off.

Together they are a perfect demonstration of woo in action. It has nothing to do with the 'grey' area of the unknowns that actually do surround the issue of mind and consciousness, it's about promoting a desired conclusion by abusing logic and ignoring science and evidence.

[SusanDoris]

Well said, Ipppy. I do not bother reading /Sriram's posts except on rare occasions.

[Sriram]

And here we go with one of your standard, almost automated responses (it was bound to be either the "two boxes" or the "scepticism is an adolescent trait").

My posts are bound to be about......

1. Two boxes

2. Adolescent mindset...Three stages

3. Zoom -in...Zoom -out

4. Spirituality is different from religion. Spirituality is  secular.

5. Science should evolve to include phenomena other than the material. Reality is a spectrum 

6. Religions have succeeded

7. Many recent scientific ideas like the Anthropic Principle point to Intelligent design.

8. Intelligence is built into our body and its evolution. Emergent properties and complexity point to that.

9. If science can accept ideas such as Dark Energy and Dark Matter why not soul and spirit?

10. Know thyself is the most important spiritual message. Our Self (Subject) is the most important aspect to be understood.

11. 'Life' could be a form of energy.  A biofield could exist uniting all life forms and the planet as a whole.

12. NDE's point to an after-life.

13. Spirituality is connected to evolution and self development

14. Our Unconscious mind could point to forces working within ourselves.

!5. Science has its limitations. Logic and sensory observations are not enough to define the universe.

14. Spirituality and Science will eventually converge


.....off the cuff....these and many more are the subjects on which I have been writing here.