Author Topic: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions  (Read 7311 times)

Sriram

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Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« on: December 25, 2017, 05:27:15 AM »
Hi everyone,

Here is a BBC article about how Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism, Christianity & Islam in their early days.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20170406-this-obscure-religion-shaped-the-west

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Christianity has frequently been used to define the identity and values of the US and Europe, as well as to contrast those values with those of a Middle Eastern ‘other’. Yet, a brief glance at an ancient religion – still being practised today – suggests that what many take for granted as wholesome Western ideals, beliefs and culture may in fact have Iranian roots.

It is generally believed by scholars that the ancient Iranian prophet Zarathustra (known in Persian as Zartosht and Greek as Zoroaster) lived sometime between 1500 and 1000 BC.

 Zarathustra,......... preached that God alone – Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom – should be worshipped.

The idea of a single god was not the only essentially Zoroastrian tenet to find its way into other major faiths, most notably the ‘big three’: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, Judgment Day and the final revelation of the world, and angels and demons all originated in the teachings of Zarathustra, as well as the later canon of Zoroastrian literature they inspired.

Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).

According to scholars, many of these concepts were introduced to the Jews of Babylon upon being liberated by the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great. They trickled into mainstream Jewish thought, and figures like Beelzebub emerged. And after Persia’s conquests of Greek lands during the heyday of the Achaemenid Empire, Greek philosophy took a different course. The Greeks had previously believed humans had little agency, and that their fates were at the mercy of their many gods, who often acted according to whim and fancy. After their acquaintance with Iranian religion and philosophy, however, they began to feel more as if they were the masters of their destinies, and that their decisions were in their own hands.

Centuries before Dante’s Divine Comedy, the Book of Arda Viraf described in vivid detail a journey to Heaven and Hell. Could Dante have possibly heard about the cosmic Zoroastrian traveller’s report, which assumed its final form around the 10th Century AD? The similarity of the two works is uncanny,....

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The article does not mention that when Islam came into Persia, many Zoroastrians fled persecution and landed in India. They were accepted and allowed to set up their own religious community. They are known as the Parsis.   

Cheers.

Sriram

Robbie

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2017, 06:09:51 AM »
Thanks for that Sririam.
You said:- ...a brief glance at an ancient religion – still being practised today – suggests that what many take for
granted as wholesome Western ideals, beliefs and culture may in fact have Iranian roots.


Yes I'm well aware of it, my mum was the first to tell me about Zoroastrianism, hope you get some more response.
I had a greeting yesterday from a Parsi friend.
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Walter

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2017, 01:07:11 PM »
Sriram

just goes to show , then as now, some people will believe anything they are told . Sad really!

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2017, 02:02:12 PM »
Sriram

just goes to show , then as now, some people will believe anything they are told . Sad really!

Hi Walter,

Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have  had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.

Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death.   Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world. 

It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.

For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct. 

Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!

 

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2017, 10:09:36 PM »
This is really little more than an observation.

As I have mentioned before, I own property in SW France. In the 12th century, there was a large Cathar population in my part of France - "Cathar Country" was not just limited to Languedoc, as some tourist information may imply. As a consequence, I have occasionally attempted to learn something about the Cathars.

Anyway, my observation is that Catharism and related belief systems ( eg ?Bogamils etc) appear - to me - to be some kind of fusion between Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Am I on the right track?

Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 05:34:18 AM »
This is really little more than an observation.

As I have mentioned before, I own property in SW France. In the 12th century, there was a large Cathar population in my part of France - "Cathar Country" was not just limited to Languedoc, as some tourist information may imply. As a consequence, I have occasionally attempted to learn something about the Cathars.

Anyway, my observation is that Catharism and related belief systems ( eg ?Bogamils etc) appear - to me - to be some kind of fusion between Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Am I on the right track?


So...what's the problem with an observation?!    If we find that certain ideas and beliefs have been around in various parts of the world...it is only meaningful to find out how they could have influenced one another.

Walter

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 11:36:40 AM »
Hi Walter,

Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have  had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.

Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death.   Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world. 

It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.

For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct. 

Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!
yes I am missing something , all the bollocks !

ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 12:50:39 PM »
Hi Walter,

Read along with the other thread on 'Religions have succeeded', you will find that religions have  had a very important role in civilizing us, bringing us together and in promoting all those values that we today take for granted.

Religious beliefs are just models of the world nothing more. They are models of those aspects that are most relevant to us.....the subjective world of experiences, society, love, morality, Life and Death.   Maybe these models are not entirely correct just as the models in Science are not entirely correct. But it is nevertheless important that people have some models of the world. 

It is a fact that we are today no closer to a more reliable model of the world than those which religions present. I don't mean the models of the objective external world but those of the subjective world.....of relationships, morality, life and death.

For thousands of years, millions/billions of people have held beliefs that have guided them and provided them with hope, meaning and purpose. There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct. 

Don't you think it is possible that you are missing something?!

I can't see that there is any reason why you shouldn't be free to have any of these beliefs and you say, 'There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct', yet as I understand it, you have a form of belief that takes on board as a part of your beliefs, you believe in a figure that's human in form other than its head that seems to have been borrowed the from an Elephant, not even the normal kind of Elephant head, the head of a bright blue Elephant.

Then having said the above you then go on to indicate someone is missing something and yet it appears you believe in blue Elephant headed deities? 

Regards ippy

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2017, 12:54:26 PM »
I can't see that there is any reason why you shouldn't be free to have any of these beliefs and you say, 'There is surely something at the core of these beliefs that are relevant and meaningful even if the models themselves are not entirely correct', yet as I understand it, you have a form of belief that takes on board as a part of your beliefs, you believe in a figure that's human in form other than its head that seems to have been borrowed the from an Elephant, not even the normal kind of Elephant head, the head of a bright blue Elephant.

Then having said the above you then go on to indicate someone is missing something and yet it appears you believe in blue Elephant headed deities? 

Regards ippy


LOL!  The old wind up...eh?!

ippy...what do you know about what I believe anyway?! 

ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 01:19:32 PM »

LOL!  The old wind up...eh?!

ippy...what do you know about what I believe anyway?!

If you look at the post of mine you are referring to you must have noticed that I made a point of not nailing you down to a specific belief, it does look to me you may have missed this?

Regards ippy

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 01:34:14 PM »
If you look at the post of mine you are referring to you must have noticed that I made a point of not nailing you down to a specific belief, it does look to me you may have missed this?

Regards ippy


Never mind ippy.  Hinduism is too vast and complex to be explained in this specific context.  I have done it many times on this forum in the past....but not now. Maybe some other time.

If you really want you could check out my article here....

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/hinduismaaaa/

ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 02:02:27 PM »

Never mind ippy.  Hinduism is too vast and complex to be explained in this specific context.  I have done it many times on this forum in the past....but not now. Maybe some other time.

If you really want you could check out my article here....

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/hinduismaaaa/

Thanks for the link but I think I would find Hinduism about as interesting as any of the other religions would be to me, I'm am about as  a dyed in the wool non-religious person as you're ever likely to get, it's all man made nonsense to me, about as useful horoscopes where identical twins don't have identical lives.

I'd like to visit India the only thing that puts me off a bit is there seems to be about twenty thousand people to the square inch whenever I see any films about your otherwise a beauty of a country. 

Regards ippy

P S Are you a blue Elephant man or not?

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 02:23:39 PM »
Thanks for the link but I think I would find Hinduism about as interesting as any of the other religions would be to me, I'm am about as  a dyed in the wool non-religious person as you're ever likely to get, it's all man made nonsense to me, about as useful horoscopes where identical twins don't have identical lives.

I'd like to visit India the only thing that puts me off a bit is there seems to be about twenty thousand people to the square inch whenever I see any films about your otherwise a beauty of a country. 

Regards ippy

P S Are you a blue Elephant man or not?


You don't have to be a religious person to read and understand religions.  It might give you a different perspective on people. Adds to ones wisdom... always.

About the Elephant God...keep wondering.  ;)

ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 06:50:53 PM »

You don't have to be a religious person to read and understand religions.  It might give you a different perspective on people. Adds to ones wisdom... always.

About the Elephant God...keep wondering.  ;)

The only interest I have in religions is where it draws me to sites like this forum because it fascinates me how seriously people in general take up something that is, to me, so obviously man made.

All of the various beliefs have this inbuilt constituent part, a kind of mantra, whereby they perpetuate themselves by their method of teaching in such a way that each generation then feels obliged to pass on their own indoctrination directing them to make sure they also indoctrinate the next generation, to indoctrinate the next and on and on, very much in the way psychology students are given example of the Mongolian horseman culture, it perpetuates in a very similar way. 
 
Therefore you could look at how altruistic and well meaning we non-religious are, where we are doing our best to break the circle for you religious believers to help and allow you to then progress on into the real world, I'll bet you hadn't realised how altruistic our intentions are?

I suppose you could look at our works as though we're missionaries helping to guide you lot away from your bronze age, and even earlier in some cases, magical mystical and superstition based religious nonsense.

Regards ippy

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 05:16:20 AM »
The only interest I have in religions is where it draws me to sites like this forum because it fascinates me how seriously people in general take up something that is, to me, so obviously man made.

All of the various beliefs have this inbuilt constituent part, a kind of mantra, whereby they perpetuate themselves by their method of teaching in such a way that each generation then feels obliged to pass on their own indoctrination directing them to make sure they also indoctrinate the next generation, to indoctrinate the next and on and on, very much in the way psychology students are given example of the Mongolian horseman culture, it perpetuates in a very similar way. 
 
Therefore you could look at how altruistic and well meaning we non-religious are, where we are doing our best to break the circle for you religious believers to help and allow you to then progress on into the real world, I'll bet you hadn't realised how altruistic our intentions are?

I suppose you could look at our works as though we're missionaries helping to guide you lot away from your bronze age, and even earlier in some cases, magical mystical and superstition based religious nonsense.

Regards ippy


Ooh!  So kind of you guys...I am sure!!!  :D

On the other hand we are trying to save your souls and instill some wisdom so that you can go to higher worlds.  ;)

We all seem to be so kind to each other.  Full of love and goodwill!!!

Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!



Harrowby Hall

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 09:58:46 AM »

So...what's the problem with an observation?!    If we find that certain ideas and beliefs have been around in various parts of the world...it is only meaningful to find out how they could have influenced one another.

Well, thank you for your reply, Sriram. I was hoping to receive some insightful reply which - might - provide me with opportunities for appropriate reading. But I guess that your original post just contained an article of the "my, fancy that!" genre which you saw as suitable for cutting and pasting.

I take it that you do not have any real insight into the influences of Zoroastrianism on 11th and 12th century Christian movements.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 02:21:55 PM »
Well, thank you for your reply, Sriram. I was hoping to receive some insightful reply which - might - provide me with opportunities for appropriate reading. But I guess that your original post just contained an article of the "my, fancy that!" genre which you saw as suitable for cutting and pasting.

I take it that you do not have any real insight into the influences of Zoroastrianism on 11th and 12th century Christian movements.


No..I do not have.

It is an article I read and posted for your info.  HH....I cannot and will not take up independent research on every article that I read.  I thought that would be obvious.

Robbie

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 04:21:55 PM »
This thread has led me to explore - I didn't sleep much last night and found myself reading about the Transcendentalists & the influence of the Vedic period, the Romantics, philosophy of the enlightenment (and less pleasant things leading on from that). Then at about 5am I started on the many and various movements within Judaism, how they developed, the demographics and individual customs. After which I went to bed and dreamed!
Giving it a bit of a rest now but thanks, Sririam.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 04:48:13 PM »


Very interesting, Sriram


Quote
Even the idea of Satan is a fundamentally Zoroastrian one; in fact, the entire faith of Zoroastrianism is predicated on the struggle between God and the forces of goodness and light (represented by the Holy Spirit, Spenta Manyu) and Ahriman, who presides over the forces of darkness and evil. While man has to choose to which side he belongs, the religion teaches that ultimately, God will prevail, and even those condemned to hellfire will enjoy the blessings of Paradise (an Old Persian word).

The links between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic faiths seem fairly clear, though the percolation of a really powerful demonic force into them took quite some time. Beelzebub in Judaism is little more than a pantomime demon, with few powers accredited to him against the God of Isaiah, who is supposed to be all in all. It was of course one of the writers of the Book of Isaiah who recorded the liberation of the Jews of Babylon by Cyrus the Great - whom the writer in question refers to as "MESSIAH" (Jesus is not the only one, you see! :) The idea of the Jews having taken on some of the Persian ideas seems perfectly reasonable in the circumstances.

I think Ahriman is considered a more powerful force than the Christian devil - there's supposed to be quite a powerful old tussle going on between the forces of light and darkness in Zoroastrianism, even if good wins hands down in the end. Christianity seems to suggest that the devil is only permitted to exist by God because that allows humans to make their moral choices (those that believe in a devil at all, that is). So Christianity is not quite so dualistic.
Except in the following text:

Quote
44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8

That looks like a direct borrowing from the Persian religion - no sense of Satan having been a fallen angel at all.


I find it all interesting, but have no belief in any of these things.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 04:51:55 PM »

No..I do not have.

It is an article I read and posted for your info.  HH....I cannot and will not take up independent research on every article that I read.  I thought that would be obvious.

I think that Catharism continued the tradition of dualism implicit in the Gnostic gospels, and to some extent John's gospel as I noted above. These almost certainly were influenced by Zoroastrianism.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2017, 05:04:51 PM »


I find it all interesting, but have no belief in any of these things.


These are just different ways of coming to terms with the good and evil in us.    Just models of our subjective nature. Just allegories.  We don't have to take them literally.

In Hinduism for example...we have no absolute evil at all.  We believe that we all were born earlier as animals and have progressively developed spiritually to become humans. Even as humans we develop further from being selfish people to become more saintly. We have retained parts of the animal nature within us which is what we need to eradicate progressively.

ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2017, 05:07:50 PM »

Ooh!  So kind of you guys...I am sure!!!  :D

On the other hand we are trying to save your souls and instill some wisdom so that you can go to higher worlds.  ;)

We all seem to be so kind to each other.  Full of love and goodwill!!!

Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!

Good to see my post was taken as intended Sriram, only the thing is, in reply to where you have put: 'Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!, I'm not so sure how until recent times in our history, when religious belief and office was the only game in town,  makes it necessary for me to ask, how then were the realists among us supposed to avoid the religious fingers that were present in every pie? 

I can't be sharing any of your imaginary friends with you any time Sriram, no matter how high you like to think they are, however our differences don't/shouldn't make us enemies.

Kind regards ippy

Robbie

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 06:25:13 PM »
Nice!

I also read about Durga......now that is a story I would love to see captured on the big screen.
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Sriram

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2017, 05:07:55 AM »
Good to see my post was taken as intended Sriram, only the thing is, in reply to where you have put: 'Thanks to religious teachings all these centuries.....!!, I'm not so sure how until recent times in our history, when religious belief and office was the only game in town,  makes it necessary for me to ask, how then were the realists among us supposed to avoid the religious fingers that were present in every pie? 

I can't be sharing any of your imaginary friends with you any time Sriram, no matter how high you like to think they are, however our differences don't/shouldn't make us enemies.

Kind regards ippy


Of course our differences should not make us enemies!   I agree with that absolutely.  I wouldn't even be posting here (20 years now) if not.

However, studying religions (all religions) and understanding how they developed and how they have contributed positively to society is very important.   Just because our own personal beliefs are at variance with some of the religions does not mean we can ignore them entirely....and wish they would go away.


ippy

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Re: Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2017, 12:24:14 PM »

Of course our differences should not make us enemies!   I agree with that absolutely.  I wouldn't even be posting here (20 years now) if not.

However, studying religions (all religions) and understanding how they developed and how they have contributed positively to society is very important.   Just because our own personal beliefs are at variance with some of the religions does not mean we can ignore them entirely....and wish they would go away.

I'd be quite happy to see religions go away to somewhere in a similar way that the writings of Homer are taken nowadays, a rather quaint collection of old stories that don't need to be taken that seriously and neither can I see any harm in reference to religions within our young children's history lessons just so that we're able to see how things used to be.

As you can see we differ on our opinions about this subject, it's just that surly when even you must recognise we are now in the 21 st century and should be putting magical, mystical and old superstitious beliefs to bed now, it's about time.

Regards ippy