Author Topic: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar  (Read 20783 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #100 on: January 12, 2018, 05:28:06 PM »
Why - is that one of your past times - testing yourself for unconscious bias? What do you find you are biased about? Or is that a requirement in the academic field - regularly check and identify your biases as part of your appraisal process?
I have no idea about what you define as overt racism, sexism or homophobia - not that it matters on here as this all seems very subjective and seems to very much revolve around your personal tolerance levels on the issue. Feel free to consign my type of thinking to whatever dustbin you like - as a liberal I don't need you to believe what I believe - and if it makes you feel all warm inside to feel morally superior to me, knock yourself out. Glad to have been of service.

I didn't experience bullying or a lack of diversity in the army - I had a good laugh though. We were informed about rules and practices to deal with bullying so maybe these practices had worked in the areas I experienced, which is why I didn't experience any - only banter, jokes, camaraderie and lovely helpful people who would look out for me.

The middle office areas I worked in in banking did have some banter but also seemed quite diverse - some Asians, some black people, some gay people, quite a few women - lots of jokes aimed primarily at straight, white men but if they liked you and wanted to include you then they'd joke with you too. There were a couple of issues with mild bullying - I sorted my experience of sexism and bullying in a humorous way with an elaborate wind-up - in fact one of the VPs of the bank at my first job called me a "bastard" to my face while laughing as I roped him into the wind-up of the head of my team for mildly bullying me - the VP added that he used to feel sorry for me being the only girl on an all-male team but now he felt sorry for them. I was a bit shocked but it was a nice feeling when he called me a bastard. And I ended up being friends with the head of my team.

As we already established I probably would not want to adopt your world view on this issue and you clearly would not want to adopt mine.
And are you sure that what you perceived as 'banter' wasn't thought of by others in a much more negative manner.

Just recently a survey revealed that 52% of women in the workplace indicated that they had been on the receiving end of what they felt to be sexual harassment - and in many cases this was portrayed by the perpetrator as 'banter' but was clearly not seen as that by the recipient. Perhaps many of your colleagues felt deeply uncomfortable or even threatened by the workplace environment, but (like most on the receiving end in a toxic or hostile workplace environment) that they couldn't speak out.

No doubt there are plenty of people who though the Harvey Weinstein workplace environment was filled with 'just banter'.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #101 on: January 12, 2018, 05:29:43 PM »
There were a couple of issues with mild bullying ...
Dropped that one into the middle of the post didn't you. There shouldn't be any bullying mild or otherwise in the workplace - full stop.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #102 on: January 12, 2018, 05:35:51 PM »
Why - is that one of your past times - testing yourself for unconscious bias? What do you find you are biased about? Or is that a requirement in the academic field - regularly check and identify your biases as part of your appraisal process?
You really are off the pace on workplace practice.

Training about and personal assessment of unconscious biased is now extremely common across all sorts of sectors. It is very well embedded in many large public sector organisations, but also in the private sector, including (now) within many major banks.

It is done, firstly, as part of creating a workplace that is welcoming to all, but also to ensure that recruitment practices are both fair and also most effective (to ensure that the best candidate does get the job) and not the candidate who is most like the recruitment panel - which is often the manifestation of unconscious biases.

Go find out about it yourself - it is genuinely interesting and you can run through some online assessments in a matter of minutes. We all have unconscious biases (I do) - indeed on the training I did the leader indicated that over many years and hundreds of assessments he had only found a single person who displayed no unconscious bias at all. The point isn't about whether you have them or not (we all do) but recognising them and ensuring that in practice you don't bias decisions on the basis of those biases.

Rhiannon

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #103 on: January 12, 2018, 05:41:24 PM »
It's interesting to google 'banter or abuse'.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #104 on: January 12, 2018, 05:42:29 PM »
And are you sure that what you perceived as 'banter' wasn't thought of by others in a much more negative manner.

Just recently a survey revealed that 52% of women in the workplace indicated that they had been on the receiving end of what they felt to be sexual harassment - and in many cases this was portrayed by the perpetrator as 'banter' but was clearly not seen as that by the recipient. Perhaps many of your colleagues felt deeply uncomfortable or even threatened by the workplace environment, but (like most on the receiving end in a toxic or hostile workplace environment) that they couldn't speak out.

No doubt there are plenty of people who though the Harvey Weinstein workplace environment was filled with 'just banter'.
I am not sure of anything. Neither are you - so pointless question. I don't need to be sure.

If people objected they have to take responsibility for their feelings and report it to HR if they want it to stop. As no one forced them to congregate at that particular spot to share the joke and they could have just sat at their desk and carried on with their work or if they heard a joke they found offensive they could have objected, I assume they were there because they found it funny.

My experience is that people weren't told they should be able to take a joke if they objected to banter - people were considerate and figured out how to moderate their behaviour depending on the feedback from their audience. Those who liked provocative jokes and banter told them to other people who liked provocative jokes and banter.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #105 on: January 12, 2018, 05:45:14 PM »
You really are off the pace on workplace practice.

Training about and personal assessment of unconscious biased is now extremely common across all sorts of sectors. It is very well embedded in many large public sector organisations, but also in the private sector, including (now) within many major banks.

It is done, firstly, as part of creating a workplace that is welcoming to all, but also to ensure that recruitment practices are both fair and also most effective (to ensure that the best candidate does get the job) and not the candidate who is most like the recruitment panel - which is often the manifestation of unconscious biases.

Go find out about it yourself - it is genuinely interesting and you can run through some online assessments in a matter of minutes. We all have unconscious biases (I do) - indeed on the training I did the leader indicated that over many years and hundreds of assessments he had only found a single person who displayed no unconscious bias at all. The point isn't about whether you have them or not (we all do) but recognising them and ensuring that in practice you don't bias decisions on the basis of those biases.
jesus !
Perhaps everybody should just stay in bed all day , alone !!!!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #106 on: January 12, 2018, 05:51:56 PM »
Dropped that one into the middle of the post didn't you. There shouldn't be any bullying mild or otherwise in the workplace - full stop.
If you meant that I typed the words in the order that they flowed in the narrative, then yes.

I notice you drop lots of things into the middle of your post - well done you for figuring out sentences are placed in paragraphs and can come in different orders.

I agree there shouldn't be bullying - that's why I brought it up and talked about dealing with it. When I found a joke objectionable I dealt with it. That was my experience of banking - if you found a joke objectionable there were ways to make your objection known and deal with it. You may well have had a different experience when you tried to object to a joke - fair enough.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #107 on: January 12, 2018, 05:53:41 PM »
jesus !
Perhaps everybody should just stay in bed all day , alone !!!!
What are you on about. Nope this is about trying to ensure that you have the most effective recruitment and workplace practice. Making sure that members of your workforce don't feel threatened or harassed at work, that they feel able to do the best possible job - that they don't simply leave because they find the workplace atmosphere toxic (they wont necessarily tell you, but you'll simply find high quality employees simply voting with their feet).

What's wrong with trying to ensure that.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #108 on: January 12, 2018, 06:00:22 PM »
If you meant that I typed the words in the order that they flowed in the narrative, then yes.

I notice you drop lots of things into the middle of your post - well done you for figuring out sentences are placed in paragraphs and can come in different orders.

I agree there shouldn't be bullying - that's why I brought it up and talked about dealing with it. When I found a joke objectionable I dealt with it. That was my experience of banking - if you found a joke objectionable there were ways to make your objection known and deal with it. You may well have had a different experience when you tried to object to a joke - fair enough.
So you've have accepted that there was bullying in your workplace (albeit mild, but none is acceptable as you indicate). You have also indicated that there were unwelcome comments, joke etc, that you found 'objectionable' but that it was left to you as the person on the end of the objectionable comments to have to deal with the issue. That doesn't sound like a healthy workplace at all - rather the organisational culture should be such that everyone understands the boundaries of what is acceptable and not, and that it is managers and leaders who should ensure the culture is maintained.

Now I am assuming that you weren't the line manager of the people making the 'objectionable' comments (correct me if I am wrong). But if that is the case then it should have been their line manager quietly taking them to one side to indicate that those kinds of comment or joke aren't really acceptable. If should never be left to you as that puts you in a very awkward position and in many cases, particularly for young, junior (and female) employees they wont feel able to 'deal with it' particularly if the comment come from a more senior person as is the case more often than not.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2018, 06:01:53 PM »
What are you on about. Nope this is about trying to ensure that you have the most effective recruitment and workplace practice. Making sure that members of your workforce don't feel threatened or harassed at work, that they feel able to do the best possible job - that they don't simply leave because they find the workplace atmosphere toxic (they wont necessarily tell you, but you'll simply find high quality employees simply voting with their feet).

What's wrong with trying to ensure that.

And again you use the smug "democratic centralist" approach.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #110 on: January 12, 2018, 06:04:03 PM »
You really are off the pace on workplace practice.

Training about and personal assessment of unconscious biased is now extremely common across all sorts of sectors. It is very well embedded in many large public sector organisations, but also in the private sector, including (now) within many major banks.

It is done, firstly, as part of creating a workplace that is welcoming to all, but also to ensure that recruitment practices are both fair and also most effective (to ensure that the best candidate does get the job) and not the candidate who is most like the recruitment panel - which is often the manifestation of unconscious biases.

Go find out about it yourself - it is genuinely interesting and you can run through some online assessments in a matter of minutes. We all have unconscious biases (I do) - indeed on the training I did the leader indicated that over many years and hundreds of assessments he had only found a single person who displayed no unconscious bias at all. The point isn't about whether you have them or not (we all do) but recognising them and ensuring that in practice you don't bias decisions on the basis of those biases.
I am sure it is interesting but now I am no longer in the corporate sector and work for my own small company, my priorities are mostly cash flow. I doubt that identifying my biases is going to make any difference to clients paying fees on time or is going to reduce the rates bill or influence the costs of other overheads.

What I notice is most welcoming to new employees is money, professional training and work-life balance. And yes people still tell provocative jokes to people they think share a similar sense of humour.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #111 on: January 12, 2018, 06:17:48 PM »
So you've have accepted that there was bullying in your workplace (albeit mild, but none is acceptable as you indicate). You have also indicated that there were unwelcome comments, joke etc, that you found 'objectionable' but that it was left to you as the person on the end of the objectionable comments to have to deal with the issue. That doesn't sound like a healthy workplace at all - rather the organisational culture should be such that everyone understands the boundaries of what is acceptable and not, and that it is managers and leaders who should ensure the culture is maintained.
No, what I found objectionable was when the team leader dropped his pants in the office and mooned to my video camera, which someone else on the team was using to film him, while I was out of the office, and then left it back on my desk. So I didn't discover the mooning until I went home and played the tape. They were all giggling and laughing like schoolboys - probably the fact that it was after lunch and they had been drinking and it was summer was one of the reasons they were stupid enough to do something like that in the office and film it and give me the evidence. I thought that was a joke too far.

Some of the jokes and comments were stupid but I didn't feel harassed. Some were actually quite clever and pretty funny. 

I found the environment pretty healthy - I learned a lot and had a laugh at work most of the time and even enjoyed the learning experience of busy and stressful days.

Quote
Now I am assuming that you weren't the line manager of the people making the 'objectionable' comments (correct me if I am wrong). But if that is the case then it should have been their line manager quietly taking them to one side to indicate that those kinds of comment or joke aren't really acceptable. If should never be left to you as that puts you in a very awkward position and in many cases, particularly for young, junior (and female) employees they wont feel able to 'deal with it' particularly if the comment come from a more senior person as is the case more often than not.
Oh please - that would have been unhealthy for me though I accept your option might have been healthy for you. I felt empowered by dealing with it myself - in fact it was one of the highlights of that job and it still gives me a feel-good factor when I think about it - especaially Dale laughing and calling me a bastard. I was young and junior - it was my first job after university.

But then I tend to enjoy more high-risk situations that challenge me - and find those better for my mental health and happiness. The increasingly low-risk culture that seems to be taking over is becoming suffocating and depressing.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:24:43 PM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2018, 06:21:17 PM »
And again you use the smug "democratic centralist" approach.
Eh - what on earth are you on about.

Quite the reverse - appropriate workplace practice is most likely to support, nurture and develop those least obviously from what you might describe as the 'elite'.

Without appropriate practices people have a great tendency (overt and via unconscious bias) to think people like them just happen to be better. So in effect a perpetuation of male, pale (white) and stale (middle aged). Add to that the chum culture and you have a classic elite mix whereby the top jobs (and promotion and opportunities) end up disproportionately from those of establishment backgrounds - e.g. private schools, Oxbridge etc.

Good employment practice mitigates against this - or do you somehow think that trying to ensure that the best are most appropriately identified and nurtured regardless of their background (rather than a nice little merry-go-round of white, male, middle class, private school dominance) is somehow smug "democratic centralist".

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2018, 06:24:35 PM »
Oh please - that would have been unhealthy for me though I accept your option might have been healthy for you. I felt empowered by dealing with it myself
And what about all those who don't feel confident enough or 'empowered' to deal with it - which as survey after survey shows is the vast majority. Are they supposed to suffer in silence because management practice was weak and institutional culture poor.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2018, 06:29:19 PM »
No, what I found objectionable was when the team leader dropped his pants in the office and mooned to my video camera, which someone else on the team was using to film him, while I was out of the office, and then left it back on my desk. So I didn't discover the mooning until I went home and played the tape. They were all giggling and laughing like schoolboys - probably the fact that it was after lunch and they had been drinking and it was summer was one of the reasons they were stupid enough to do something like that in the office and film it and give me the evidence. I thought that was a joke too far.
It gets worse and worse.

You try to portray your work environment as fine, then admit there was bullying, then that you found aspects of behaviour objectionably, and then you reveal this.

What you have reported is not acceptable - it is way, way beyond acceptable - this isn't even borderline, I would have thought this would easily be construed as unlawful sexual harassment and you shouldn't have had to put up with it, and certainly should have been made to deal with this yourself.

As this person appeared to be your superior, he should have been hauled into his superior straight away and disciplined. This would be the 'quiet word' type of action as far as I'm concerned, this at the very least should be written warning at the least.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2018, 06:31:51 PM »
And what about all those who don't feel confident enough or 'empowered' to deal with it - which as survey after survey shows is the vast majority. Are they supposed to suffer in silence because management practice was weak and institutional culture poor.
I am just pointing out that you shouldn't generalise based on the stereotype of how you think female junior employees react and how they need rescuing.

My experience is that the jokes were aimed at women who they thought could handle the banter and who would let them know if they crossed a line. From what I remember they were polite and well-behaved to people who didn't give them hell back and put them down in return. Of course there is an issue if they misjudge someone - like they did with me and the video camera. All the guys on my team found that funny - but they accepted that I didn't and because I got my revenge they seemed happy to modify their behaviour without holding a grudge.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2018, 06:52:02 PM »
It gets worse and worse.

You try to portray your work environment as fine, then admit there was bullying, then that you found aspects of behaviour objectionably, and then you reveal this.
Where did I portray my workplace as fine? You seem to have formed your own interpretations of what I wrote - is that an example of unconscious bias?

Quote
What you have reported is not acceptable - it is way, way beyond acceptable - this isn't even borderline, I would have thought this would easily be construed as unlawful sexual harassment and you shouldn't have had to put up with it, and certainly should have been made to deal with this yourself.

As this person appeared to be your superior, he should have been hauled into his superior straight away and disciplined. This would be the 'quiet word' type of action as far as I'm concerned, this at the very least should be written warning at the least.
I don't need you to tell me it's not acceptable - that's why I dealt with it. I first made him sweat by pretending I was going to HR with the video tape evidence he had so helpfully provided me of it happening in the office; and then I made a public request in front of my team leader and the rest of the team for a private meeting with a VP and then I told the VP I wanted to make my team leader think I wanted disciplinary action and I needed his help for it to be convincing so my team leader would be bricking it. That's why the VP laughed and called me a bastard and said he felt sorry for them. But he loved it and got my manager involved as he said there needed to be 2 people at the mock hearing to make it realistic and they had a sealed envelope on the table and made him think he was about to be fired. They loved it.

My team leader was confiding his anxiety before the 'disciplinary hearing' to another team leader who was training me and who was happy to report the conversations to me and have a laugh about it. It was actually pretty entertaining. My team leader came by my desk after the fake hearing and said he was impressed.  And then we were friends. He did get me back in some way - a joke that had me panicking for about 15 minutes. All ended well so it was good for my health.

Probably wouldn't be good for yours though - I doubt you would have appreciated the funny side.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:19 PM »
I haven't said anything about abortion.

However society has determined that sexism, racism and homophobia are not acceptable, in accordance with our basic human rights obligations and within the law and regulations that run within society and its organisations from top to bottom. So yes, opposing sexism, racism and homophobia is the default position within the UK.
But society has also introduced the idea of thought crime, and pulling rights and obligations out of it's arse in very undemocratic ways vis thought police tendencies.

Also there is the scourge of infantilising, part of which is part of society's deficit model. In other words guilty until proved innocent or incompetent and completely incapable of segregating thought from practice.

In this case it is not trusting the public to dispatch at the ballot box and banning instead vis the hysterical rubbish I read about Farron that 'people like him have no place in Britain'. What the fuck could that possibly mean. Please tell us.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:29:24 PM by Private Frazer »

Rhiannon

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2018, 07:18:33 PM »
Can you give us the link to something saying that 'people like him have no place in Britain'?

Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2018, 07:18:48 PM »
It gets worse and worse.

You try to portray your work environment as fine, then admit there was bullying, then that you found aspects of behaviour objectionably, and then you reveal this.

What you have reported is not acceptable - it is way, way beyond acceptable - this isn't even borderline, I would have thought this would easily be construed as unlawful sexual harassment and you shouldn't have had to put up with it, and certainly should have been made to deal with this yourself.

As this person appeared to be your superior, he should have been hauled into his superior straight away and disciplined. This would be the 'quiet word' type of action as far as I'm concerned, this at the very least should be written warning at the least.
its just aswell you were not in my team (when I had a p proper job )you or someone with a similar attitude would not have made it to the end of the week !


Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2018, 07:27:19 PM »
Can you give us the link to something saying that 'people like him have no place in Britain'?
Metro letters section.

Rhiannon

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2018, 07:30:54 PM »

Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2018, 07:31:50 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2018, 07:32:31 PM »
its just aswell you were not in my team (when I had a p proper job )you or someone with a similar attitude would not have made it to the end of the week !
On what basis wouldn't I have made it to the end of the week. Would you have sacked me (and if so on what basis) or would you have bullied/harassed me out?