Author Topic: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar  (Read 20764 times)

Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #125 on: January 12, 2018, 07:34:15 PM »
On what basis wouldn't I have made it to the end of the week. Would you have sacked me (and if so on what basis) or would you have bullied/harassed me out?
the last one probably (just kidding)  See what I did there?

Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #126 on: January 12, 2018, 07:47:40 PM »
Actually joking asside it was a very sexist ,racist macho environment and that was just the women .
I'm not making that up !!!

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #127 on: January 12, 2018, 08:39:21 PM »
On what basis wouldn't I have made it to the end of the week. Would you have sacked me (and if so on what basis) or would you have bullied/harassed me out?
I think it's more likely you would have moved on to work in an environment and a team that better suited your outlook.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #128 on: January 12, 2018, 08:48:59 PM »
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/12/to-sin-or-not-to-sin-an-open-letter-to-tim-farron/
Not really getting all the self-pity and hurt and the need for other people's approval. Maybe i was born wrong.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Aruntraveller

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #129 on: January 12, 2018, 11:09:50 PM »
Not really getting all the self-pity and hurt and the need for other people's approval. Maybe i was born wrong.

TBH I don't give a flying fuck about Tim but Dim's views.

The self-pity and angst as you put it seems to come from Gay Christians trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.

It's not only your Mam and Dad that fucks you up.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2018, 06:14:17 AM »
There are clearly as many interpretations of this strand of Christianity as there are Christians, since there are Christians who stop at “Jesus loves us and we’re all sinners and only God can judge” without tacking on any additional bits about being gay or sodomy being an extra bad sin, deserving a seat at the back of the bus or is being born wrong.

The same way there are all kinds of Muslim messages coming at me every day expressing judgement. Not surprisingly I hang out with people who try to follow the only God can judge line, and don’t let all the Islamic broadcasts and speeches where people are judging my behaviour affect me - other than I might try to shoot down their arguments either in my head or out loud.

I can understand parents having a huge impact on us - we’re forced to live with them every day Which gives them lots of opportunities to mess with your head. In the UK I cannot understand why gay Christians don’t hang out with accepting religious people instead of tying themselves up in unnecessary knots because of someone else’s beliefs. Given people express beliefs all the time, it just seems masochistic to me to not ignore people saying stuff they believe if taking on their beliefs makes yyou feel bad.

It would be like me taking seriously Prof D’s belief that he has superior behavioural standards to me
and still coming back to the forum to feel inferior and unaccepted. Makes more sense to disregard Prof D’s beliefs then I don’t feel inferior. That’s the bit where I think gay Christians don’t really help themselves if they give so much of their power to other people, who are free to hold whatever beliefs they want.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 07:00:54 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #131 on: January 13, 2018, 10:05:28 AM »
I don't need you to tell me it's not acceptable - that's why I dealt with it. I first made him sweat by pretending I was going to HR with the video tape evidence he had so helpfully provided me of it happening in the office; and then I made a public request in front of my team leader and the rest of the team for a private meeting with a VP and then I told the VP I wanted to make my team leader think I wanted disciplinary action and I needed his help for it to be convincing so my team leader would be bricking it. That's why the VP laughed and called me a bastard and said he felt sorry for them. But he loved it and got my manager involved as he said there needed to be 2 people at the mock hearing to make it realistic and they had a sealed envelope on the table and made him think he was about to be fired. They loved it.

My team leader was confiding his anxiety before the 'disciplinary hearing' to another team leader who was training me and who was happy to report the conversations to me and have a laugh about it. It was actually pretty entertaining. My team leader came by my desk after the fake hearing and said he was impressed.  And then we were friends. He did get me back in some way - a joke that had me panicking for about 15 minutes. All ended well so it was good for my health.
So effectively this organisations approach to dealing with a (pretty clear) accusation of bullying and harassment, rather than engage in an appropriate disciplinary procedure, was to sanction and engage in bullying and harassment of the accused in return. A kind of tit for tat bullying and harassment - astonishing.

This kind of behaviour should only be seen in the school playground (actually it shouldn't be seen there either) it should have no place whatsoever in a professional workplace.

All I can hop is that this happened a very, vey long time ago and that the organisation in question has subsequently recognised that it needs to operate appropriate professional employment practice - including, at the very least, complying with the law.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #132 on: January 13, 2018, 10:11:29 AM »
I am just pointing out that you shouldn't generalise based on the stereotype of how you think female junior employees react and how they need rescuing.
I am not generalising - I am basing my view on evidence. Firstly that many employees suffer harassment, that a much greater proportion of women than men do and that being female, junior and young within an organisations increases both the likelihood of suffering harassment but also the likelihood that the victim doesn't feel able to report it.

So in you world all seems to be OK because you were tough enough to deal with the bullying and harassment you received. That is generalising - what if you were not. What if you felt that you might lose your job if you spoke out, or simply felt scared. What then. Mt view is that the organisational culture should be such that it is absolutely clear that this type of behaviour is unacceptable, so it doesn't happen in the first place. If it doesn't happen neither you nor someone less able to speak out is disadvantaged. In your world unless you are tough enough you are effectively screwed. That's wrong.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #133 on: January 13, 2018, 10:19:22 AM »
So effectively this organisations approach to dealing with a (pretty clear) accusation of bullying and harassment, rather than engage in an appropriate disciplinary procedure, was to sanction and engage in bullying and harassment of the accused in return. A kind of tit for tat bullying and harassment - astonishing.

This kind of behaviour should only be seen in the school playground (actually it shouldn't be seen there either) it should have no place whatsoever in a professional workplace.

All I can hop is that this happened a very, vey long time ago and that the organisation in question has subsequently recognised that it needs to operate appropriate professional employment practice - including, at the very least, complying with the law.
God I hope not - it would be so much more boring to go to work. Your ideal workplace sounds like a place where fun goes to die.

No - humour is still alive - my daughter just told me the funniest joke told to her by a Muslim friend - there was a priest, a rabbi and an imam on a plane that was crashing with children on-board and not enough parachutes.....

ETA - actually it seems she was told the joke by a 30-something doctor who was at a party swapping jokes with her 50-something uncle.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:32:15 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #134 on: January 13, 2018, 10:27:06 AM »
I am not generalising - I am basing my view on evidence. Firstly that many employees suffer harassment, that a much greater proportion of women than men do and that being female, junior and young within an organisations increases both the likelihood of suffering harassment but also the likelihood that the victim doesn't feel able to report it.

So in you world all seems to be OK because you were tough enough to deal with the bullying and harassment you received. That is generalising - what if you were not. What if you felt that you might lose your job if you spoke out, or simply felt scared. What then. Mt view is that the organisational culture should be such that it is absolutely clear that this type of behaviour is unacceptable, so it doesn't happen in the first place. If it doesn't happen neither you nor someone less able to speak out is disadvantaged. In your world unless you are tough enough you are effectively screwed. That's wrong.
Nope - in my world I am telling you I don't need my manager to step in and rescue me and it would have demeaned me if he had and made me feel bad about myself. Is that the outcome you wanted  - for people who have a different outlook from you to feel bad about themselves by being forced to adopt your world view? 

In my world - if you do want help then you should ask for it - and then your manager should step in. In fact I did ask for help from the VP and he did step in - and the bit that made me feel great was that he did not take over and talk down to me and tell me what was good for me - he listened to how I wanted to handle the situation, bolstered my ego by calling me a bastard, commended me for being able to handle myself, and bothered to execute my plan by going above and beyond the call of duty. He was a great boss - especially considering I had never had a conversation with him before that private meeting except on the day he interviewed me for the job.

And of course everyone knew the behaviour was unacceptable in the organisation - but risk-takers push boundaries and I like risk takers. And you're being naive if you believe that an organisation's culture can prevent incidents happening. Humans can't be controlled to that extent that you can ensure incidents never happen.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:37:47 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #135 on: January 13, 2018, 10:39:53 AM »
Nope - in my world I am telling you I don't need my manager to step in and rescue me ...
Generalising again - if is was OK for you it should be OK for everyone. I'm not talking about you, I am talking about someone else who might end up in your position within that organisation, suffering the most overt of sexual harassment and bullying, and not feel able to deal with it themselves. What about them.

And actually I disagree on the most fundamental levels - once you have an organisation that sanctions the notion that if you are bullied or harassed then the appropriate response is to take the law into your own hands and bully and harass back then we are in a precipitous race to the bottom.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #136 on: January 13, 2018, 10:41:25 AM »
And of course everyone knew the behaviour was unacceptable in the organisation ...
Yet the organisation did nothing formally about it - what kind of message does that send? Indeed they appeared to turn a blind eye to further bullying be perpetrated in response to the original bullying.

Toxic environment.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #137 on: January 13, 2018, 10:43:58 AM »
Generalising again - if is was OK for you it should be OK for everyone. I'm not talking about you, I am talking about someone else who might end up in your position within that organisation, suffering the most overt of sexual harassment and bullying, and not feel able to deal with it themselves. What about them.

And actually I disagree on the most fundamental levels - once you have an organisation that sanctions the notion that if you are bullied or harassed then the appropriate response is to take the law into your own hands and bully and harass back then we are in a precipitous race to the bottom.
I suggest you stop quote-mining and misrepresenting - it comes across as dishonest and makes for a poor argument on your part.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #138 on: January 13, 2018, 10:46:52 AM »
Yet the organisation did nothing formally about it - what kind of message does that send? Indeed they appeared to turn a blind eye to further bullying be perpetrated in response to the original bullying.

Toxic environment.
For you maybe. The environment you prefer would be suffocatingly toxic for someone who has a different outlook from you - but that's why different people pick different types of work environments that are suited to their strengths and weaknesses. And that's why we have interview processes so people can assess the organisation and its managers and potential employees can assess if they fit in the organisation and the team.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:49:33 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #139 on: January 13, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »
He was a great boss - especially considering I had never had a conversation with him before that private meeting except on the day he interviewed me for the job.
I'm sorry - he was an awful boss. He sanctioned you doing something completely outside of employment law and acceptable employment practice to get back as the guy who had harassed you. He put you (the victim in the original situation) in a position where you could very easily, yourself, have been facing disciplinary proceedings and you wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. Him too. Plus also sanctioned actions that could easily have allowed the original perpetrator off the hook. Imagine that guy had got into hot water again and had been properly disciplined and had complained, for example gone to an employment tribunal. The employment tribunal would tear your organisation to shred over their dealing with the original incident.

So your 'great' boss actually put you, himself and the organisation into an extremity risky and potentially damaging situation by sanctions completely unprofessional response to the original harassment. Plus also his actions could have resulted in the original perpetrator getting off scott free if actual disciplinary action was eventually taken for this or another incident.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:50:33 AM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #140 on: January 13, 2018, 10:49:50 AM »
For you maybe. The environment you prefer would be suffocatingly toxic for someone who has a different outlook from you - but that's why different people pick different types of work environments that are suited to their strengths and weaknesses.
I expect, as a minimum, that organisations abide by standard employment law - your story reveals an organisation that on multiple couples failed to even meet that minimum standard. Happy about that?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #141 on: January 13, 2018, 10:50:48 AM »
I'm sorry - he was an awful boss. He sanctioned you doing something completely outside of employment law and acceptable employment practice to get back as the guy who had harassed you. He put you (the victim in the original situation) in a position where you cold very easily, yourself, have been facing disciplinary proceedings. Plus also sanctioned actions that could easily have allowed the original perpetrator off the hook. Imagine that guy had got into hot water again and had been properly disciplined and had complained, for example gone to an employment tribunal. The employment tribunal would tear your organisation to shred over their dealing with the original incident.

So your 'great' boss actually put you, himself and the organisation into an extremity risky and potentially damaging situation by sanctions completely unprofessional response to the original harassment. Plus also his actions could have resulted in the original perpetrator getting off scott free if actual disciplinary action was eventually taken for this or another incident.
Thanks for your opinion.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #142 on: January 13, 2018, 10:52:53 AM »
I expect, as a minimum, that organisations abide by standard employment law - your story reveals an organisation that on multiple couples failed to even meet that minimum standard. Happy about that?
Thanks for your opinion. Yes I was happy at my first job. Enjoyed the team spirit and the friendships - my team leader came to my birthday party and leaving drinks. I went to his leaving drinks. So much happier with that outcome than the one that would have occurred if there had been disciplinary hearings. Thanks for asking.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Rhiannon

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #143 on: January 13, 2018, 11:06:46 AM »
There are clearly as many interpretations of this strand of Christianity as there are Christians, since there are Christians who stop at “Jesus loves us and we’re all sinners and only God can judge” without tacking on any additional bits about being gay or sodomy being an extra bad sin, deserving a seat at the back of the bus or is being born wrong.

The same way there are all kinds of Muslim messages coming at me every day expressing judgement. Not surprisingly I hang out with people who try to follow the only God can judge line, and don’t let all the Islamic broadcasts and speeches where people are judging my behaviour affect me - other than I might try to shoot down their arguments either in my head or out loud.

I can understand parents having a huge impact on us - we’re forced to live with them every day Which gives them lots of opportunities to mess with your head. In the UK I cannot understand why gay Christians don’t hang out with accepting religious people instead of tying themselves up in unnecessary knots because of someone else’s beliefs. Given people express beliefs all the time, it just seems masochistic to me to not ignore people saying stuff they believe if taking on their beliefs makes yyou feel bad.

It would be like me taking seriously Prof D’s belief that he has superior behavioural standards to me
and still coming back to the forum to feel inferior and unaccepted. Makes more sense to disregard Prof D’s beliefs then I don’t feel inferior. That’s the bit where I think gay Christians don’t really help themselves if they give so much of their power to other people, who are free to hold whatever beliefs they want.

It's not so simple. If you belong to one stripe of Christianity you can't just shop around for another when you feel like it. It's akin to looking for a different family of the one you have happens to read the Daily Mail and vote for Brexit. There are groups of gay Christians - even Evangelicals such as Farron - but joining them may mean the disapproval of their own church and their family.

Christianity, IME, is all about giving away your personal power - to priest, pastor, church elders - if you are raised that way it is very difficult to kick against it and maintain belief, especially as a teenager.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #144 on: January 13, 2018, 11:32:33 AM »
It's not so simple. If you belong to one stripe of Christianity you can't just shop around for another when you feel like it. It's akin to looking for a different family of the one you have happens to read the Daily Mail and vote for Brexit. There are groups of gay Christians - even Evangelicals such as Farron - but joining them may mean the disapproval of their own church and their family.

Christianity, IME, is all about giving away your personal power - to priest, pastor, church elders - if you are raised that way it is very difficult to kick against it and maintain belief, especially as a teenager.
I agree it is difficult to think with clarity. I don't know how the mechanism works that leads some people to accept one outlook and other people accept a different outlook. But if you know you will feel happier kicking against it, I wonder what people get out of not adapting their belief - presumably people adopted the belief in the first place in order to feel happier? They are not being accepted anyway for who they are so what's the pull to stay with that particular interpretation?

Growing up as a girl, I felt pressure to conform to certain narratives and expectations but they made me feel bad about myself if I felt I did not measure up and it was not an emotion I liked feeling. For example, I know I am going to grow old and wrinkly (unless I die young) and the belief that wrinkles and grey hair on women is less attractive will make me feel bad, and given the inevitability of the aging process, I decided it was better for my happiness to believe that wrinkles and grey hair is not less attractive. That other people believe something different about beauty is a freedom they have - obviously I would prefer it if they believed the same thing I believed - but it makes no sense to me to make myself unhappy by sharing their belief when I could make myself happy by believing something different.

Same with make-up - I figure if you wear make-up all the time, people are used to seeing you with make-up therefore when you don't wear make-up they think you look bad, plus your skin is probably spotty from all the make-up you have been wearing. So it makes sense to manage people's expectations by rarely wearing make-up so they think you look great when you do wear it, plus not wearing it most of the time is better for your skin, and better for your bank account as you barely spend anything on make-up. My daughters seem to have adopted this view as well - they can see the sense of it and they feel happier because they hear all the comments that their friends make about other people who usually wear make-up and then come into school sometimes without it. I don't know how their brains made this decision to go with my view over the view of others.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walter

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #145 on: January 13, 2018, 11:42:43 AM »
Gabriella , I'm beginning to like you !

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #146 on: January 13, 2018, 11:49:10 AM »
Thanks. I'm sure that feeling won't last long when we get onto another topic  :P
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #147 on: January 13, 2018, 11:50:58 AM »
Christianity, IME, is all about giving away your personal power - to priest, pastor, church elders - if you are raised that way it is very difficult to kick against it and maintain belief, especially as a teenager.
Power of what? Is ''giving power to another person/other people what Christianity is all about'' I thought it was about giving your life to God? Do tell.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #148 on: January 13, 2018, 12:39:56 PM »
I hereby declare this thread to be well and truly derailed.
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Tim Farron reveals himself as a liar
« Reply #149 on: January 13, 2018, 12:50:36 PM »
I hereby declare this thread to be well and truly derailed.
I don't know about that - it seems to follow on quite well from your comment in reply #12:

"What is it about the Abrahamic religions that causes them to be so obsessed with matters of sex and sexuality? My guess is that private and personal behaviour can be used to generate guilt and shame .... and hence control."
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi