Transubstantiation

[Robbie]

You already said that a very short while ago!

[Anchorman]

I have read that there is a value placed on the consecrated host by devil worshippers who pay for it in order to perform ritual abuse on the host.  And apparently these devil worshippers can tell whether the host has been consecrated.

   



"Consecrated" simply means 'set apart for special use, Alan.
Many branches of the church set the elements apart for a 'holy use and mystery', accepting thespecial nature of the sacrement without transubstantiation.
Nothing is lost in accepting by faith that these elements symbolise the body broken and blood shed for us.

[Alan Burns]

   



"Consecrated" simply means 'set apart for special use, Alan.
Many branches of the church set the elements apart for a 'holy use and mystery', accepting thespecial nature of the sacrement without transubstantiation.
Nothing is lost in accepting by faith that these elements symbolise the body broken and blood shed for us.

The moment of consecration was always denoted by the ringing of the church bell during the Mass celebration in the early Christian church.  It is still denoted during our RC Mass by the alter server ringing the hand bell at the moment of consecration. 

[Anchorman]

Alan: With respect, are we to conclude that the irst Eucharist - the Last Supper - the elements somehow became the 'real presence' of Christ....the day BEFORE His sacrifice on Calvary? That doesn't make sense. When He instituted the sacrament, there was no sacrifice....but the elements were to be a future reminder of sacrifice.

[Alan Burns]

Alan: With respect, are we to conclude that the first Eucharist - the Last Supper - the elements somehow became the 'real presence' of Christ....the day BEFORE His sacrifice on Calvary? That doesn't make sense. When He instituted the sacrament, there was no sacrifice....but the elements were to be a future reminder of sacrifice.

I do respect those who believe the Eucharist to represent the body of Christ, but I personally believe in the Gospel scripture from Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

[ProfessorDavey]

I do respect those who believe the Eucharist to represent the body of Christ, but I personally believe in the Gospel scripture from Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

You still haven't answered the question - is this a physical or symbolic conversion. If the former then this could be easily proven via analysis of the physical composition before and after.

[Anchorman]

I do respect those who believe the Eucharist to represent the body of Christ, but I personally believe in the Gospel scripture from Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

   





OK.....but surely He was using symbolic language at the Last Supper? After all, how could the elements He distributed be Himself when He Himself was still very much present and Active? They had to remain, in every sense, bread and wine.
When Christ said "I am the door'...was tghere a handle or a letterbox?
When He said "I am the true vine" WAs He a plant?
When He said "I am the Way", was He a Roman road?
Yes, I know these are flippant, but they are examples of Him using spiritual language and metaphor to make a point.
Why was the Last Supper any different?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Sorry I have no idea what you are talking about.

All I am proposing is a study (were anyone inclined to perform it) that would objectively assess whether the presence of wafers affected the interaction between the vicar and inmates. And were it to do whether it was due to a psychological effect and whether that was drive  by the response of the vicar, the inmates or both, possibly in a reciprocal manner.

But given that the basis of the study appears to be a single person, who is clearly not an objective observer, making an anecdotal claim, then I doubt any serious psychology researchers would be interested.

Your last sentences demonstrate that the direction of scientific discovery is chosen by a higher priesthood.
How is not doing experiments science?

[Alan Burns]

OK.....but surely He was using symbolic language at the Last Supper? After all, how could the elements He distributed be Himself when He Himself was still very much present and Active? They had to remain, in every sense, bread and wine.
When Christ said "I am the door'...was tghere a handle or a letterbox?
When He said "I am the true vine" WAs He a plant?
When He said "I am the Way", was He a Roman road?
Yes, I know these are flippant, but they are examples of Him using spiritual language and metaphor to make a point.
Why was the Last Supper any different?

In the end, I accept the authority and wisdom of God's appointed church leaders, whom I believe to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

[Alan Burns]

You still haven't answered the question - is this a physical or symbolic conversion. If the former then this could be easily proven via analysis of the physical composition before and after.

I believe that God is physically present in the Eucharist after consecration.   I would assume that any scientific analysis will still verify that the atomic elements in the consecrated Eucharist are unchanged, but this will not prove or disprove God's physical presence.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I believe that God is physically present in the Eucharist after consecration.   I would assume that any scientific analysis will still verify that the atomic elements in the consecrated Eucharist are unchanged, but this will not prove or disprove God's physical presence.

Are you then suggesting a recapitulation of the incarnation?

[Alan Burns]

Are you then suggesting a recapitulation of the incarnation?

Yes, that is what I and my church believe.

[Anchorman]

In the end, I accept the authority and wisdom of God's appointed church leaders, whom I believe to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

   


Even if that authority contradicts the Scripture it claims as its subordinate standard?
Which is more authoratative: Scripture or the Church?

[Alan Burns]

If some of the Catholic church leaders are appointed by god, it is incompetent, or having a bad joke at the congregations' expense! For a start, what about the paedophiles in their ranks, whose crimes have been swept under the carpet by the hierarchy?

The fact that some have infiltrated God's church for their own selfish reasons does not diminish the divinely designated authority of the church.

[jeremyp]

All that would do is test inmate side psychological alteration in behaviour. It would address the issue which is a more credible explanation if there was a change in behaviour. Namely that the vicar changed his behaviour towards the inmates (and therefore received a different response in return) when he was carrying wafers and not. Give that the vicar is likely the be the person 'in the room' most bought into the significance of the wafers, then the alteration in behaviour is much more likely to be on his side.

But hey I'm just a scientist.

Sorry prof, but I think your analysis is incorrect. I think that the vicar's observations of the inmates' behaviour are what's most likely to be influenced by him carrying hidden wafers.

[jeremyp]

   
"Consecrated" simply means 'set apart for special use, Alan.

Nope

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/consecrate

[jeremyp]

The moment of consecration was always denoted by the ringing of the church bell during the Mass celebration in the early Christian church.  It is still denoted during our RC Mass by the alter server ringing the hand bell at the moment of consecration.

In the early Christian church there probably wasn't a bell.

[jeremyp]

I do respect those who believe the Eucharist to represent the body of Christ, but I personally believe in the Gospel scripture from Luke 22:19
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Do you really think he meant that literally even though he was right there with them?

[ProfessorDavey]

I believe that God is physically present in the Eucharist after consecration.   I would assume that any scientific analysis will still verify that the atomic elements in the consecrated Eucharist are unchanged, but this will not prove or disprove God's physical presence.

Yes it does - if something is physically present, then there will be physical evidence, which would be readily proven by science. If the atomic elements are unchanged then there is no new 'physical presence'.

[Anchorman]

Nope https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/consecrate

Sorry; not in as Presbyterian sense, it doesn'r. It's a Kirk thing. I'm consecrated - set apart as a reader in the Church o Scotland. (Hey, nobody's perfect.) My certificate authorising me to preach states: That he is ste apart, consecrated to ehw work of Readership, with all the duties thereof". That's different from ordination - I'm ordained elder, studying for ordained local ministry. In communion, the elements are 'consecrated' - the modern lingo in the "Book of common order" - the Kirk book where formulaic stuff can be dredged up for services, states ".....that we take these elements of bread and wine, set apart for this holy use and mystery."

[jeremyp]

Sorry; not in as Presbyterian sense, it doesn'r. It's a Kirk thing.

This isn't about the presbyterian church.

[Anchorman]

Nope. It's about the Church, of which Presbyterianism is a part.

[jeremyp]

Nope. It's about the Church, of which Presbyterianism is a part.

Catholics (and the dictionaries) have a different interpretation of what "consecrated" means. Your definition is irrelevant in this context.

[Robbie]

The word, "Consecrated" has several meanings, no-one here is wrong.

consecrate
ˈkɒnsɪkreɪt/Submit
verb
past tense: consecrated; past participle: consecrated
make or declare (something, typically a church) sacred; dedicate formally to a religious purpose.
"the present Holy Trinity church was consecrated in 1845"
(in Christian belief) declare (bread and wine) to be or represent the body and blood of Christ.
"they received the host but not the consecrated wine"
ordain (someone) to a sacred office, typically that of bishop.
"he was consecrated bishop of York"
synonyms:   sanctify, bless, make holy, make sacred, hallow, set apart, dedicate to God

[jeremyp]

The word, "Consecrated" has several meanings, no-one here is wrong.

Anchorman is wrong to correct the meaning to what he and his church thinks because, as the story makes abundantly clear, this is about the Roman Catholic Church, not the Kirk in Scotland.