Author Topic: Article on reincarnation  (Read 18855 times)

Sriram

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Article on reincarnation
« on: January 26, 2018, 04:28:54 PM »
Hi everyone,

Here is an article I came across about Jim Tucker who is a psychiatrist in the University of Virginia...and his research on reincarnation.

http://uvamagazine.org/articles/the_science_of_reincarnation

Cheers.

Sriram

floo

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 05:31:04 PM »
Interesting.

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 05:47:38 AM »

I didn't provide an excerpt yesterday, so here is an extract from the article....

************

One day, as Ryan and Cyndi paged through one of the Hollywood books, Ryan stopped at a black-and-white still taken from a 1930s movie, Night After Night. Two men in the center of the picture were confronting one another. Four other men surrounded them. Cyndi didn’t recognize any of the faces, but Ryan pointed to one of the men in the middle.

“Hey Mama,” he said. “That’s George. We did a picture together.” His finger then shot over to a man on the right, wearing an overcoat and a scowl. “That guy’s me. I found me!”

The book didn’t provide any names of the actors pictured, but Cyndi quickly confirmed that the man Ryan said was “George" in the photo was indeed a George—George Raft, an all but forgotten film star from the 1930s and 1940s. Still, she couldn’t identify the man Ryan said had been him.Cyndi wrote Tucker, whom she found through her online research, and included the photo. Eventually it ended up in the hands of a film archivist, who, after weeks of research, confirmed the scowling man’s name: Martin Martyn, an uncredited extra in the film.

Tucker hadn’t shared that discovery with the Hammons family when he traveled to their home a few weeks later. Instead, he laid out black-and-white photos of four women on the kitchen table. Three of them were random.

Tucker asked Ryan, “Do any of these mean anything to you?”

Ryan studied the pictures. He pointed to one. She looks familiar, he said.

It was Martin Martyn’s wife.

Not long afterward, Tucker and the Hammonses traveled to California to meet Martyn’s daughter, who’d been tracked down by researchers working with Tucker on a documentary. Tucker sat down with the woman before her meeting with Ryan. She’d been reluctant to help, but during her talk with Tucker, she confirmed dozens of facts Ryan had given about her father.

Ryan said he danced in New York. Martyn was a Broadway dancer. Ryan said he was also an “agent,” and that people where he worked had changed their names. Martyn worked for years at a well-known talent agency in Hollywood—where stage names are often created—after his dancing career ended.

Ryan said his old address had “Rock” in its name. Martyn lived at 825 North Roxbury Dr. in Beverly Hills. Ryan said he knew a man named Senator Five. Martyn’s daughter said she had a picture of her father with a Senator Ives, Irving Ives, of New York, who served in the U.S. Senate from 1947 to 1959.

And yes, Martin Martyn had three sons. The daughter of course knew their names.

Ryan’s claims, while rare, are not unique among the more than 2,500 case files sitting inside the offices of Jim B. Tucker (Res ’89), an associate psychiatry professor at the UVA Medical Center’s Division of Perceptual Studies.

In cases where a child’s story has been traced to another individual, the median time between the death of that person and the child’s birth is about 16 months.

Further research by Tucker and others has shown the children generally have above-average IQs and do not possess any mental or emotional disorders beyond average groups of children. None appears to have been dissociating from painful family situations.

Nearly 20 percent of the children studied have scarlike birthmarks or even unusual deformities that closely match marks or injuries the person whose life the child recalls received at or near his or her death.

Most children’s claims generally subside around age 6, coinciding roughly with what Tucker says is the time children’s brains ready themselves for a new stage of development.

Despite the otherworldly nature of their stories, almost none of the children exhibit any signs of being particularly enlightened, Tucker says.

“My impression of the children is that while a few make philosophical statements about life, most are just typical kids,” he says. “It might be a situation similar to not being any smarter on the first day of first grade than you were on the last day of kindergarten.”

How exactly the consciousness, or at least memories, of one person might transfer to another is obviously a mystery, but Tucker believes the answers might be found within the foundations of quantum physics.

Scientists have long known that matter like electrons and protons produces events only when observed.

A simplified example: Take light and shine it through a screen with two slits cut in it. Behind the screen, put a photographic plate that records the light. When the light is unobserved as it travels, the plate shows it went through both slits. But what happens when the light is observed? The plate shows the particles go through just one of the slits. The light’s behavior changes, and the only difference is that it is being observed.There’s plenty of debate on what that might mean. But Tucker, like Max Planck, the father of quantum physics, believes that discovery shows that the physical world is affected by, and even derived from the non-physical, from consciousness.

If that’s true, then consciousness doesn’t require a three-pound brain to exist, Tucker says, and so there’s no reason to think that consciousness would end with it.

“It’s conceivable that in some way consciousness could be expressed in a new life,” Tucker says.

************

I know this is a fairly long extract....but it is all relevant to the thread.

Cheers.

Sriram

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 06:28:28 AM »


Max Planck the father of Quantum Mechanics, on Consciousness.....

http://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/max-planck-i-regard-consciousness-as-fundamental

"I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness."

Source: The Observer (25 January 1931) (via Wikiquote)

torridon

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 08:26:01 AM »
For memories to be transplanted from one individual to another, there must be a mechanism to support that information transfer.  Living brains provide a mechanism for information retention in an individual over time; when a brain is compromised by disease or injury, its cognitive function is likewise impaired, this is what the evidence suggests.  If we could retain memories without having a brain, then we could dispense with brains, they are very expensive after all.

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 09:25:11 AM »
For memories to be transplanted from one individual to another, there must be a mechanism to support that information transfer.  Living brains provide a mechanism for information retention in an individual over time; when a brain is compromised by disease or injury, its cognitive function is likewise impaired, this is what the evidence suggests.  If we could retain memories without having a brain, then we could dispense with brains, they are very expensive after all.


You are talking as if you decide what the world should be, based on your understanding of some cost-benefit analysis!!!  The world is what it is... and if we don't understand it.... well...we just don't!  You cannot deny realities just because you don't understand them.

And we all will dispense with the brain.... some day.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 09:38:33 AM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 09:49:24 AM »

You are talking as if you decide what the world should be, based on your understanding of some cost-benefit analysis!!!  The world is what it is... and if we don't understand it.... well...we just don't!  You cannot deny realities just because you don't understand them.

That doesn't make reincarnation a 'reality'.  It's just an idea without any basis in reason.

ekim

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 10:46:55 AM »
If we could retain memories without having a brain, then we could dispense with brains, they are very expensive after all.
Unless the brain memory is your local hard drive which serves you locally but all information is stored automatically in a universal data base, a bit like today's 'cloud' data storage.  If I remember correctly, the Theosophical Society had the idea of Akashic records, based upon a Hindu term Akasha, where all human mental events were stored.  I suppose that this led to the idea that some people with clairvoyant abilities were able to access these records.

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 11:49:10 AM »
That doesn't make reincarnation a 'reality'.  It's just an idea without any basis in reason.

Your reasoning is dependent on your brain, your learning, your culture and your limitations. The universe does not have to limit itself to that surely!!

ippy

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2018, 12:47:48 PM »
Your reasoning is dependent on your brain, your learning, your culture and your limitations. The universe does not have to limit itself to that surely!!

I can remember seeing a play on T V in the very old days B & W steam television days, it was titled 'Stone Tape', I've no idea of who the author was. (Wikki says Peter Sasdy was the author and was broadcast by BBC 2 in 1972).

Very crudely it was about how strong emotional events would somehow be recorded by materials surrounding the event, whatever the event happened to be; after a period of time someone that, for reasons unknown to me, just happened to be sensitive to their surroundings and happened to be in tune, somehow, to the information that was supposedly recorded in the physical surroundings and was able to run the tape of the events that had happened in the past in their mind. (Assuming tape recordings were considered to be a state of the art recording device at the time).

This SF story makes more sense to me than all reincarnation stories ever written about, which are just a bunch of entertaining stories as the one I mention 'Stone Tape'.   

By the way your use of cheers at the end of your posts comes over as dismissive to my western ears, on saying that perhaps it's a slight difference in use of language, I'm assuming English may not be your first language, I only mention this out of interest, I have no wish to condemn your use of the term, no offence is intended.

Kind regards ippy

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 03:10:25 PM »
I can remember seeing a play on T V in the very old days B & W steam television days, it was titled 'Stone Tape', I've no idea of who the author was. (Wikki says Peter Sasdy was the author and was broadcast by BBC 2 in 1972).

It was Nigel Kneale of Quatermass fame.

ippy

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2018, 04:09:36 PM »
It was Nigel Kneale of Quatermass fame.

Not according to Wikki

Regards ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2018, 04:14:23 PM »
Not according to Wikki

Regards ippy
Sasdy was the director, Kneale the writer.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stone_Tape

Robbie

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2018, 02:33:50 PM »
Ippy thank you for pointing me in the direction of 'The Stone Tapes';  I'd not heard of it before but found it on Youtube and am very interested in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtvJWKaDI9s

(By the way, I often say "Cheers" at the end of a bit of conversation, to me it's just a pleasantry, like "All the best", less formal than "Kind regards". Perhaps I'll avoid saying it from now on, never occurred to me that anyone would find it dismissive.)
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

ippy

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2018, 08:19:13 PM »
Ippy thank you for pointing me in the direction of 'The Stone Tapes';  I'd not heard of it before but found it on Youtube and am very interested in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtvJWKaDI9s

(By the way, I often say "Cheers" at the end of a bit of conversation, to me it's just a pleasantry, like "All the best", less formal than "Kind regards". Perhaps I'll avoid saying it from now on, never occurred to me that anyone would find it dismissive.)

Rob, I wasn't certain that Sriram was being dismissive, I've a feeling it's not his intention, but it does come over that way sometimes.

Sriram, I'm a non-belever in any religion because I haven't seen anything that gives me any reason to think there is such a thing as a god, I view reincarnation in the same way, everything I have read or heard about them points to them as being man made ideas, neither of them that good an idea either.

Regards to the pair of you, ippy
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:26:58 PM by ippy »

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2018, 06:20:50 AM »
Rob, I wasn't certain that Sriram was being dismissive, I've a feeling it's not his intention, but it does come over that way sometimes.

Sriram, I'm a non-belever in any religion because I haven't seen anything that gives me any reason to think there is such a thing as a god, I view reincarnation in the same way, everything I have read or heard about them points to them as being man made ideas, neither of them that good an idea either.

Regards to the pair of you, ippy


'Cheers' is just a cheery way of ending a post instead of the formal 'Regards' or 'Best Wishes' or 'Yours Sincerely'   Sometimes  I may use it in a dismissive way...perhaps... yes!  ;)

Reincarnation is not about religion though it is prevalent largely among Hindus and other Indian religions like Jains and Buddhists. Many non Hindus like Christians, Pagans, Jews and even Muslims believe in reincarnation. In fact, many of the cases investigated by Ian Stevenson are among Muslim children in Lebanon. Pythagoras was one of the early western thinkers who believed in reincarnation.

Reincarnation is a philosophical idea to explain the process of life and its development. There is significant evidence for it.

 

torridon

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2018, 06:26:31 AM »
Unless the brain memory is your local hard drive which serves you locally but all information is stored automatically in a universal data base, a bit like today's 'cloud' data storage.  If I remember correctly, the Theosophical Society had the idea of Akashic records, based upon a Hindu term Akasha, where all human mental events were stored.  I suppose that this led to the idea that some people with clairvoyant abilities were able to access these records.

Cloud servers are still a hardware basis for information storage, and upload and download still imply an information transfer medium and mechanism.  Fans of reincarnation would need to propose some comparable functional mechanisms to support their ideas.

torridon

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2018, 06:31:23 AM »

Reincarnation is a philosophical idea to explain the process of life and its development. There is significant evidence for it.

Hardly.

If there were significant evidence for it then it would be a branch of biology already.

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2018, 08:43:20 AM »
Hardly.

If there were significant evidence for it then it would be a branch of biology already.

It is researched under psychology as it should be. Not biology.

torridon

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 12:42:36 PM »
It is researched under psychology as it should be. Not biology.

Under 'psychology', we would try to understand peoples motivations and behaviours.  That might include why people might hold such beliefs.

If reincarnation were true however, the scope of the implications of that would far outstrip what is covered by psychology.  It would be a root and branch complete overhaul of the meaning and nature of life; pretty much everything from biology to information theory would have to be sent back to the drawing board.

ippy

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2018, 01:55:04 PM »

'Cheers' is just a cheery way of ending a post instead of the formal 'Regards' or 'Best Wishes' or 'Yours Sincerely'   Sometimes  I may use it in a dismissive way...perhaps... yes!  ;)

Reincarnation is not about religion though it is prevalent largely among Hindus and other Indian religions like Jains and Buddhists. Many non Hindus like Christians, Pagans, Jews and even Muslims believe in reincarnation. In fact, many of the cases investigated by Ian Stevenson are among Muslim children in Lebanon. Pythagoras was one of the early western thinkers who believed in reincarnation.

Reincarnation is a philosophical idea to explain the process of life and its development. There is significant evidence for it.

Sriram I agree reincarnation doesn't necessarily have a connection with religion, that's why I carefully wrote that I regard them both in the same way, ie, I see religion as man made nonsense likewise reincarnation.

To say reincarnation is a philosophical idea, to me, it would make just as much sense to say Father Christmas is a philosophical idea, I've yet to see anything that would persuade me otherwise.

Regards ippy

P S Have you considered doing Europe again any time?

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2018, 02:01:53 PM »
Sriram I agree reincarnation doesn't necessarily have a connection with religion, that's why I carefully wrote that I regard them both in the same way, ie, I see religion as man made nonsense likewise reincarnation.

To say reincarnation is a philosophical idea, to me, it would make just as much sense to say Father Christmas is a philosophical idea, I've yet to see anything that would persuade me otherwise.

Regards ippy

P S Have you considered doing Europe again any time?



You are free to have your views of course, ippy!

Europe...no ..not again immediately. My daughter is thinking of a full UK tour.  I might take a trip to America sometime soon though. Let's see!!

Sriram

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 02:14:03 PM »
Under 'psychology', we would try to understand peoples motivations and behaviours.  That might include why people might hold such beliefs.

If reincarnation were true however, the scope of the implications of that would far outstrip what is covered by psychology.  It would be a root and branch complete overhaul of the meaning and nature of life; pretty much everything from biology to information theory would have to be sent back to the drawing board.

Why are you limiting the scope of psychology and how does lumping it with biology make any difference?   It is still about consciousness and the mind and not about the human physiology.

Even if reincarnation is proved beyond doubt, current biology and medicine need not change in any way. Hindus have believed in reincarnation for millennia.....but the understanding of the body and its functions has not changed in any way.   

Maybe in the West the focus on the material world will be shifted somewhat.... but our ego will not allow that to go too far. Hindus believe in living life to the full covering all aspects of life in spite of accepting reincarnation as a normal part of life.  We don't even encourage people to become monks  or to renounce the world, except at the last stage of their lives.

Nothing much is likely to change except to give people a larger and more meaningful picture of the world.

ippy

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2018, 03:12:39 PM »
Why are you limiting the scope of psychology and how does lumping it with biology make any difference?   It is still about consciousness and the mind and not about the human physiology.

Even if reincarnation is proved beyond doubt, current biology and medicine need not change in any way. Hindus have believed in reincarnation for millennia.....but the understanding of the body and its functions has not changed in any way.   

Maybe in the West the focus on the material world will be shifted somewhat.... but our ego will not allow that to go too far. Hindus believe in living life to the full covering all aspects of life in spite of accepting reincarnation as a normal part of life.  We don't even encourage people to become monks  or to renounce the world, except at the last stage of their lives.

Nothing much is likely to change except to give people a larger and more meaningful picture of the world.

That's all very fine Sriram and likewise you should have every entitlement to hold that view I really can't see why anyone would have any kind of a differing life or be worse off, without that kind of baggage, other than the obvious effect of emptying of the unnecessary from the old broom cupboard of course.

Regards ippy

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Article on reincarnation
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2018, 04:03:15 PM »
Sriram I agree reincarnation doesn't necessarily have a connection with religion, that's why I carefully wrote that I regard them both in the same way, ie, I see religion as man made nonsense likewise reincarnation.

To say reincarnation is a philosophical idea, to me, it would make just as much sense to say Father Christmas is a philosophical idea, I've yet to see anything that would persuade me otherwise.

Regards ippy

P S Have you considered doing Europe again any time?

Reincarnation is a tenant of Rastafarianism.

You don't mess with Jah.