Article on reincarnation

[Nearly Sane]

Reincarnation is a tenant of Rastafarianism.

You don't mess with Jah.

Especially if he's your landlord.

[ippy]

Reincarnation is a tenant of Rastafarianism.

You don't mess with Jah.

Yes another man made idea, similar to believing in Father Christmas too, that I wont be messing with, man.

Regards ippy

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Yes another man made idea, similar to believing in Father Christmas too, that I wont be messing with, man.

Regards ippy

You needs the herbs, man.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Especially if he's your landlord.

Correct 

[torridon]

Why are you limiting the scope of psychology and how does lumping it with biology make any difference?   It is still about consciousness and the mind and not about the human physiology.

Even if reincarnation is proved beyond doubt, current biology and medicine need not change in any way. Hindus have believed in reincarnation for millennia.....but the understanding of the body and its functions has not changed in any way.   

Maybe in the West the focus on the material world will be shifted somewhat.... but our ego will not allow that to go too far. Hindus believe in living life to the full covering all aspects of life in spite of accepting reincarnation as a normal part of life.  We don't even encourage people to become monks  or to renounce the world, except at the last stage of their lives.

Nothing much is likely to change except to give people a larger and more meaningful picture of the world.

If i came to understand that my son, for instance, was not really my son at all, but was really some previous person reincarnated into my son's body, I don't see that as being more 'meaningful', quite the opposite, I'd find the idea very unsettling.  The fact that I know my son derives solely from me and my partner makes sense, it is the basis for parent child bonding.  if I thought my son was in fact derived from some random other stranger unrelated to any of us parachuted in out of nowhere I can't imagine what that would do to family relationships.

[Sriram]

If i came to understand that my son, for instance, was not really my son at all, but was really some previous person reincarnated into my son's body, I don't see that as being more 'meaningful', quite the opposite, I'd find the idea very unsettling.  The fact that I know my son derives solely from me and my partner makes sense, it is the basis for parent child bonding.  if I thought my son was in fact derived from some random other stranger unrelated to any of us parachuted in out of nowhere I can't imagine what that would do to family relationships.

LOL!!  You just don't get it do you!   What do you mean ...'not really my son at all'!

He will still be your son because his body, mind, name and upbringing  is given by you.   Even you were in another body earlier but you don't think of yourself as someone else, do you?! 

We don't become someone else because we were living in another body before. There are many such bodies and lifetimes we all have been through but we still remain 'us' in this birth.

We Hindus accept rebirth as a normal thing but we don't get confused by who we or our family members were earlier.....though we do sometimes think about it if we come across some special experience with some person or feel some special  relationship of love or hate that is not normal under the circumstances. We don't go into a  tizzy about it though.  Just a casual thought about who we could have been earlier and why we feel the way we do.

Anyway....there are many westerners who believe in reincarnation.  Ask some of them how they feel about their children or partners or parents. No big deal really.

[ippy]

LOL!!  You just don't get it do you!   What do you mean ...'not really my son at all'!

He will still be your son because his body, mind, name and upbringing  is given by you.   Even you were in another body earlier but you don't think of yourself as someone else, do you?! 

We don't become someone else because we were living in another body before. There are many such bodies and lifetimes we all have been through but we still remain 'us' in this birth.

We Hindus accept rebirth as a normal thing but we don't get confused by who we or our family members were earlier.....though we do sometimes think about it if we come across some special experience with some person or feel some special  relationship of love or hate that is not normal under the circumstances. We don't go into a  tizzy about it though.  Just a casual thought about who we could have been earlier and why we feel the way we do.

Anyway....there are many westerners who believe in reincarnation.  Ask some of them how they feel about their children or partners or parents. No big deal really.

This reincarnation idea of yours Sriram probably stems from the natural tendency of human nature where the surroundings may alter but human nature doesn't vary that much over the many years, which in itself would incline people such as yourself to think something like, this child of mine is just like my long departed aunt Matilda, she even, I don't know, even combs her hair in the same way at the same times in the morning, it must be Matilda has come back, ignoring the now well established well researched well known facts we now know about human nature.

No doubt over time where these primitive ideas were mulled over and much elaborated, over time they become established beliefs rather than well researched knowledge, in other words another one of those nice romantic type of ideas but not a supported, particularly meaningful or realistic idea in light of the knowledge we now can easily find to hand. 

Regards ippy

[torridon]

LOL!!  You just don't get it do you!   What do you mean ...'not really my son at all'!

He will still be your son because his body, mind, name and upbringing  is given by you.   Even you were in another body earlier but you don't think of yourself as someone else, do you?! 

We don't become someone else because we were living in another body before. There are many such bodies and lifetimes we all have been through but we still remain 'us' in this birth.

We Hindus accept rebirth as a normal thing but we don't get confused by who we or our family members were earlier.....though we do sometimes think about it if we come across some special experience with some person or feel some special  relationship of love or hate that is not normal under the circumstances. We don't go into a  tizzy about it though.  Just a casual thought about who we could have been earlier and why we feel the way we do.

Anyway....there are many westerners who believe in reincarnation.  Ask some of them how they feel about their children or partners or parents. No big deal really.

The 'evidence' for reincarnation consists of people allegedly remembering their past lives.  We are our memories, that is what makes us unique.  If personhood were somehow transported from individual to individual that would be very confusing.  In a different life, with different DNA and different life experiences my previous person would bear zero resemblance to me now.  To whatever extent my previous life should become manifest or conscious in my current life, that would be nothing other than deeply confusing and disorienting, rather like a multiple personality disorder.

[Sriram]

The 'evidence' for reincarnation consists of people allegedly remembering their past lives.  We are our memories, that is what makes us unique.  If personhood were somehow transported from individual to individual that would be very confusing.  In a different life, with different DNA and different life experiences my previous person would bear zero resemblance to me now.  To whatever extent my previous life should become manifest or conscious in my current life, that would be nothing other than deeply confusing and disorienting, rather like a multiple personality disorder.

How does our unconscious mind retain memories that we don't remember consciously? How does it decide things that we don't know of?

That shows that our personalities and our memories are not as simple as we think. Our consciousness and our personalities are very complex and reincarnation is perhaps more complex.

[ippy]

How does our unconscious mind retain memories that we don't remember consciously? How does it decide things that we don't know of?

That shows that our personalities and our memories are not as simple as we think. Our consciousness and our personalities are very complex and reincarnation is perhaps more complex.

Human nature doesn't differ that much Sriram that's a well known well researched fact and of course there'll be similarities even through generations no matter how complex are the behaviours their'll still shine through and research will always to trump here say.

Regards ippy

[Sriram]

The 'evidence' for reincarnation consists of people allegedly remembering their past lives.  We are our memories, that is what makes us unique.  If personhood were somehow transported from individual to individual that would be very confusing.  In a different life, with different DNA and different life experiences my previous person would bear zero resemblance to me now.  To whatever extent my previous life should become manifest or conscious in my current life, that would be nothing other than deeply confusing and disorienting, rather like a multiple personality disorder.

torridon,

Further to my earlier post 33, the boy Ryan and his mom from the OP, seem to be getting on fine in spite of the boy remembering his previous life.  Why should anyone not remembering their past lives have any problem?!

[torridon]

torridon,

Further to my earlier post 33, the boy Ryan and his mom from the OP, seem to be getting on fine in spite of the boy remembering his previous life.  Why should anyone not remembering their past lives have any problem?!

We all have false memories, it seems, and memories we can't readily account for sometimes.  But the concepts of karma and reincarnation are about more than just inherited memories, they imply whole persons by some or other definition whose current lives are substantively a function and outcome of a previous life, hence ideas of spiritual progress.  There is no theoretical mechanism to support this idea.  By contrast there is a wealth of evidence underpinning the concepts of inheritance through reproduction in which each new individual is essentially a new information product that takes on character and qualities as he/she develops through ongoing interaction with the wider world.  When I look at my son, I am content that i can understand all his qualities in this framework of understanding.  I can gain no further insight by imagining some of his qualities are due to some random stranger who happened to die 16 months ago.  To indulge such unwarranted speculative ideas adds nothing of value, it only diminishes my comprehension.

[Sriram]

torridon,

Yours is an Argument from Incredulity!  Just because you can't comprehend something does not mean it cannot exist.

[torridon]

torridon,

Yours is an Argument from Incredulity!  Just because you can't comprehend something does not mean it cannot exist.

Conversely, by awarding equal rights to the incomprehensible and the unevidenced we risk losing definition and meaning.

An idea has value if it explains observations that cannot otherwise be explained.  Reincarnation is a poor candidate for explaining our nature as it introduces more questions than it answers; in other words, it introduces a layer of unwarranted complication for things that are accounted for reasonably well already through the life sciences.

[Gordon]

torridon,

Yours is an Argument from Incredulity!  Just because you can't comprehend something does not mean it cannot exist.

Nope: Torridon isn't just saying 'reincarnation doesn't happen because he personally can't understand how it could', and the clue he isn't going down the incredulity route is where he goes on to say;

There is no theoretical mechanism to support this idea.  By contrast there is a wealth of evidence underpinning the concepts of inheritance through reproduction in which each new individual is essentially a new information product that takes on character and qualities as he/she develops through ongoing interaction with the wider world.

In effect he seems to be adopting a reasonable presumption that reincarnation can presumed to be false unless it can be shown to be true, where the burden of proof lies with reincarnation enthusiasts.

[Sriram]

We all have false memories, it seems, and memories we can't readily account for sometimes.  But the concepts of karma and reincarnation are about more than just inherited memories, they imply whole persons by some or other definition whose current lives are substantively a function and outcome of a previous life, hence ideas of spiritual progress.  There is no theoretical mechanism to support this idea.  By contrast there is a wealth of evidence underpinning the concepts of inheritance through reproduction in which each new individual is essentially a new information product that takes on character and qualities as he/she develops through ongoing interaction with the wider world.  When I look at my son, I am content that i can understand all his qualities in this framework of understanding.  I can gain no further insight by imagining some of his qualities are due to some random stranger who happened to die 16 months ago.  To indulge such unwarranted speculative ideas adds nothing of value, it only diminishes my comprehension.

Why are you confusing reincarnation with biological inheritance and why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

[Robbie]

Coming to this thread late, sririam, but have read the posts.

Not that long ago I saw a television series advertised about children who believe they have a past life.  I didn't watch it for many reasons but mainly I have a horror of kids being exploited on TV, sometimes by parents. Children are naturally imaginative which is great but musings of this type could easily be encouraged by adults.

https://really.uktv.co.uk/shows/the-ghost-inside-my-child/

Ties in somewhat with your opening post & there are some youtube videos from the series which I may watch in the future.

I don't like the fact that kids are dragged in but am open to the idea of reincarnation, find it attractive in some ways.

(I and I Jah blessings)

Cheers!

Robbie

[torridon]

Why are you confusing reincarnation with biological inheritance and why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

They conflict in the degree in which they compete to explain the conditions and characters of a person's life.  You like to push the notion of spiritual progress, where a spirit attains deeper enlightenment from one life to the next; that leaves atheists as somehow less developed than others, whereas I see no problem in explaining the diversity within humans in terms of inheritance and development within a lifetime.  The idea of past lives only adds a layer of speculative unevidenced narratives which obscure our understanding of the real reasons why people are the way they are.  This reaches its worst outcomes for many impoverished disabled people in Asia who end up being subject to discrimination on top of all their other problems as a result of the persistent view that they are being punished for misdemeanours in a previous life.  Irrational ideas always do harm.

[Sriram]

They conflict in the degree in which they compete to explain the conditions and characters of a person's life.  You like to push the notion of spiritual progress, where a spirit attains deeper enlightenment from one life to the next; that leaves atheists as somehow less developed than others, whereas I see no problem in explaining the diversity within humans in terms of inheritance and development within a lifetime.  The idea of past lives only adds a layer of speculative unevidenced narratives which obscure our understanding of the real reasons why people are the way they are.  This reaches its worst outcomes for many impoverished disabled people in Asia who end up being subject to discrimination on top of all their other problems as a result of the persistent view that they are being punished for misdemeanours in a previous life.  Irrational ideas always do harm.

1. I have never said that atheists are less developed. In fact I have said that blind believers are in the child stage while atheists are in the adolescence stage.  Spiritual development is not connected to belief in God. It is connected to our intellectual development and our empathy and love.

2. Our biological inheritance does not explain  the differences in our circumstances of birth and our destiny. It does not even explain why one person inherits one set of characteristics and his brother inherits another set.  Except for 'chance'...there is no explanation at all through biology for anything.  Through biology, only the physical mechanism is explained not the 'Why'.

3. The idea of reincarnation does not produce any discrimination. Discrimination happens due to peoples attitudes. There is plenty of discrimination in societies that don't believe in reincarnation. 

 

[ProfessorDavey]

I have never said that atheists are less developed. In fact I have said that blind believers are in the child stage while atheists are in the adolescence stage.

Which you have previously described in a deeply patronising manner. In effect that atheists are somehow in a perpetual state of the adolescent rebel, railing against something that inherently they ultimately recognised to be true. Well there is news for you Siriam - I suspect for many atheist the very reverse is true. namely that their recognition that they do not believe in god is a very mature recognition and one likely to last a lifetime. It is, indeed a recognition of growing up, rather than one of the adolescent rebel. Sure, our childhood always hold a strong draw, and of course almost all theists were brought up as such, but some of us mature out of childhood stories, in terms of actually believing, even if they remain strongly resonant as do so many of the stories of childhood.

[Sriram]

Which you have previously described in a deeply patronising manner. In effect that atheists are somehow in a perpetual state of the adolescent rebel, railing against something that inherently they ultimately recognised to be true. Well there is news for you Siriam - I suspect for many atheist the very reverse is true. namely that their recognition that they do not believe in god is a very mature recognition and one likely to last a lifetime. It is, indeed a recognition of growing up, rather than one of the adolescent rebel. Sure, our childhood always hold a strong draw, and of course almost all theists were brought up as such, but some of us mature out of childhood stories, in terms of actually believing, even if they remain strongly resonant as do so many of the stories of childhood.

Patronizing...yeah right!   At least someone other than atheists is being patronizing for a change!  Not bad.....even if I say so myself! 

Maturity or adolescence or child stage is not connected  to believing in God at all. You have the wrong end of the stick. 

It is about adulation, blind belief,  hero worship, lack of confidence and so on for Child stage. Being irreverent, habitual skepticism, over confidence, habitual disregard in adolescence. During maturity both these extremes are avoided and a balanced view is taken in most matters.

This is about mental stages, not about remembering ones childhood fondly or whatever.

[torridon]

1. I have never said that atheists are less developed. In fact I have said that blind believers are in the child stage while atheists are in the adolescence stage.  Spiritual development is not connected to belief in God. It is connected to our intellectual development and our empathy and love.

2. Our biological inheritance does not explain  the differences in our circumstances of birth and our destiny. It does not even explain why one person inherits one set of characteristics and his brother inherits another set.  Except for 'chance'...there is no explanation at all through biology for anything.  Through biology, only the physical mechanism is explained not the 'Why'.

3. The idea of reincarnation does not produce any discrimination. Discrimination happens due to peoples attitudes. There is plenty of discrimination in societies that don't believe in reincarnation.

3.  I don't think we can easily disentangle people's attitudes from their religious beliefs.  Discrimination against the disabled in Asia has greater persistence than elsewhere because it is empowered by a widespread tacit nod to the belief in karma, that people born afflicted are being justly punished. 

2. The 'why' question as you frame it here, might not be a valid question. Within a deterministic system, it is fair to ask 'why', as there will always be a 'because' to answer it.  That does not mean it is reasonable to ask 'why' there is a deterministic system in the first place; that implies the system is part of a greater whole, a proposition that would need some justification before the 'why' question becomes valid.

[Sriram]

3.  I don't think we can easily disentangle people's attitudes from their religious beliefs.  Discrimination against the disabled in Asia has greater persistence than elsewhere because it is empowered by a widespread tacit nod to the belief in karma, that people born afflicted are being justly punished. 

2. The 'why' question as you frame it here, might not be a valid question. Within a deterministic system, it is fair to ask 'why', as there will always be a 'because' to answer it.  That does not mean it is reasonable to ask 'why' there is a deterministic system in the first place; that implies the system is part of a greater whole, a proposition that would need some justification before the 'why' question becomes valid.

Discrimination happens all over the world. What has it to do with reincarnation? Do you have any data to prove that belief in reincarnation results in discrimination?!   You are clutching at straws.

As I have pointed out reincarnation is not a religious belief. It is a philosophical proposition. Lots of people besides Hindus believe in reincarnation.

The 'Why' question is valid and people will continue to ask  it and try to find answers. Scientists cannot shut people up just because they don't have the answers or that such answers could be uncomfortable to science enthusiasts. Your memes are  clearly as powerful as those of religious people.

[torridon]

Discrimination happens all over the world. What has it to do with reincarnation? Do you have any data to prove that belief in reincarnation results in discrimination?!   You are clutching at straws.

See #42 and #46.

Belief in reincarnation and belief in karma are related and it is the belief in karma that underpins resistance to legislation aimed at improving the lives of the disabled in places where this belief persists.  The principle of cause and effect is sound in itself, but harm comes when that principle is misapplied in combination with a belief in reincarnation and people born with defects and disabilities end up being denied the support they need because of the perception that they are born that way 'for a reason'; it is seen as karma in operation.

[Sriram]

See #42 and #46.

Belief in reincarnation and belief in karma are related and it is the belief in karma that underpins resistance to legislation aimed at improving the lives of the disabled in places where this belief persists.  The principle of cause and effect is sound in itself, but harm comes when that principle is misapplied in combination with a belief in reincarnation and people born with defects and disabilities end up being denied the support they need because of the perception that they are born that way 'for a reason'; it is seen as karma in operation.

And that was my question.  What proof do you have that belief in reincarnation and karma automatically result in resistance to legislation aimed at improving the lives of the disabled?!  This is just your imagination.