Article on reincarnation

[torridon]

And that was my question.  What proof do you have that belief in reincarnation and karma automatically result in resistance to legislation aimed at improving the lives of the disabled?!  This is just your imagination.

It's not automatic, clearly peoples vary, but that was our clear finding when I worked for an iNGO specialising in human rights support for the impoverished disabled in Africa and Asia.  Prejudice against the disabled is widespread and occurs for many reasons but this was what our field workers reported over and over again, resistance to the enactment and observance of anti-discrimination legislation in Asia derived from a popular belief in karma, that people were born afflicted 'for a reason'.  It was worst in Laos and Cambodia, but it also occurred across a wide swathe of Asian countries where we operated. We didn't find this by contrast in African countries, Malawi, Lesotho and others where there are still huge challenges facing disabled peoples but they are different, and the 'justification' for prejudice not derived from this belief.

[Sriram]

It's not automatic, clearly peoples vary, but that was our clear finding when I worked for an iNGO specialising in human rights support for the impoverished disabled in Africa and Asia.  Prejudice against the disabled is widespread and occurs for many reasons but this was what our field workers reported over and over again, resistance to the enactment and observance of anti-discrimination legislation in Asia derived from a popular belief in karma, that people were born afflicted 'for a reason'.  It was worst in Laos and Cambodia, but it also occurred across a wide swathe of Asian countries where we operated. We didn't find this by contrast in African countries, Malawi, Lesotho and others where there are still huge challenges facing disabled peoples but they are different, and the 'justification' for prejudice not derived from this belief.

I don't know how representative that 'survey' is. As long as a religion teaches compassion and self sacrifice, karma and reincarnation cannot have a negative effect. 

The greatest atrocity against the disabled happened in Europe under the Nazis. Greatest discrimination against  Jews, homosexuals, blacks etc, happens in countries with religions that do not teach karma and reincarnation.

India has the largest population that accepts karma and reincarnation, including your truly,  and no one here opposes any kind of legislation favoring the disabled.  Problems connected with poverty, lack of clinics, lack of appropriate technology and facilities could impact on the care of the disabled. But that is not due to lack of compassion. Karma in fact requires that people treat each other with kindness.   

Besides all these side effects, if reincarnation is found to be true through such cases as given in the OP, no point in arguing against it, is there?! 

[torridon]

I don't know how representative that 'survey' is. As long as a religion teaches compassion and self sacrifice, karma and reincarnation cannot have a negative effect. 

The greatest atrocity against the disabled happened in Europe under the Nazis. Greatest discrimination against  Jews, homosexuals, blacks etc, happens in countries with religions that do not teach karma and reincarnation.

India has the largest population that accepts karma and reincarnation, including your truly,  and no one here opposes any kind of legislation favoring the disabled.  Problems connected with poverty, lack of clinics, lack of appropriate technology and facilities could impact on the care of the disabled. But that is not due to lack of compassion. Karma in fact requires that people treat each other with kindness.   

Besides all these side effects, if reincarnation is found to be true through such cases as given in the OP, no point in arguing against it, is there?!

I wasn't talking about a 'survey'; we had boots on the ground in many countries, case workers out in the field supporting individuals, lawyers in courtrooms defending the rights of people who couldn't afford to fight their corner.  Real hard work, not some casual box ticking exercise.

That said, it is a bit naive to claim that noone opposes anti-discrimination legislation.  How many people admit to being racist ? How many admit to being misogynist ?  Thing is, these things go on under the hood, people don't admit to prejudices that they might be somewhat ashamed of in public.  In fact, worse than that, prejudice is often subconscious; a recent study here found that a significant percentage of women who self-identify as feminists had an unconscious bias against women.

[Sriram]

I wasn't talking about a 'survey'; we had boots on the ground in many countries, case workers out in the field supporting individuals, lawyers in courtrooms defending the rights of people who couldn't afford to fight their corner.  Real hard work, not some casual box ticking exercise.

That said, it is a bit naive to claim that noone opposes anti-discrimination legislation.  How many people admit to being racist ? How many admit to being misogynist ?  Thing is, these things go on under the hood, people don't admit to prejudices that they might be somewhat ashamed of in public.  In fact, worse than that, prejudice is often subconscious; a recent study here found that a significant percentage of women who self-identify as feminists had an unconscious bias against women.

You are digressing. Now that you agree that lots of people everywhere could be prejudiced in many ways  against many people, it shows that all this has nothing to do with reincarnation. 

Reincarnation is the only hypothesis that provides a level playing field for everyone and explains the inherent inequalities in the world and also provides an equal destiny for everyone. The 'scientific explanation' of chance is neither here nor there.   It is not an explanation in the first place. Merely identifying a mechanism is not an explanation.

[torridon]

You are digressing. Now that you agree that lots of people everywhere could be prejudiced in many ways  against many people, it shows that all this has nothing to do with reincarnation. 

Eh  ?  You're not grasping that there is a link between between reincarnation and prejudice against the disabled. What are we supposed to do, just ignore the connection on the grounds that there are other forms of prejudice with other roots in other places.  Where we can identify the causes of harm we can do things about it, and this might mean in the long term campaigning to change attitudes through better education.  People trapped in a twin cycle of poverty and disability are among the poorest of the poor and the discrimination they suffer will not go away by some glib hand waving exercise pretending that the problem does not exist.

[Gordon]

Reincarnation is the only hypothesis that provides a level playing field for everyone and explains the inherent inequalities in the world and also provides an equal destiny for everyone.

So stuff like politics, resources, knowledge and the actions (or inactions) of people explain nothing about inequality - but a slice of woo does!

The 'scientific explanation' of chance is neither here nor there.   It is not an explanation in the first place. Merely identifying a mechanism is not an explanation.

Chance, in statistical terms, isn't an explanation: when calculated (using statistical tests) it indicates whether or not the results from the analysis of the data you have collected as part of the method used to test your hypothesis could be the result of random chance. In most cases researchers would reject any findings where the calculated risk of chance was 5% or greater.

There seems to be no identified mechanism for reincarnation so you don't have a hypothesis to test in the first place.

[Sriram]

Eh  ?  You're not grasping that there is a link between between reincarnation and prejudice against the disabled. What are we supposed to do, just ignore the connection on the grounds that there are other forms of prejudice with other roots in other places.  Where we can identify the causes of harm we can do things about it, and this might mean in the long term campaigning to change attitudes through better education.  People trapped in a twin cycle of poverty and disability are among the poorest of the poor and the discrimination they suffer will not go away by some glib hand waving exercise pretending that the problem does not exist.

What?!  I am saying that there is no connection between reincarnation and prejudice.  You are just imagining it based on some experience in Laos and Cambodia or whatever. I remember, Hope who is a Christian, had a similar impression based on the few years he had spent in Nepal. He believed (I think) that Christians had a more empathetic view of everyone compared to Hindus.  Many westerners have this (rather superior) attitude  of understanding the East and its prejudices just because they spend a few years there. LOL!

Also, correlation is not causation.    No one has established any such connection especially in India, which has the largest population of believers in reincarnation.  You just like to believe all that because it suits your stand.

Prejudice is present in all communities, more so in communities that do not believe in reincarnation. Any belief in God's wisdom or fate can bring about prejudice against the unfortunate. In fact, even simple 'bad luck' can be used as a reason for prejudice.   It all depends on how empathetic or other wise the individual person is....and that has nothing to do with reincarnation.

Changing attitudes in India favouring the disabled is not happening because of rejection of reincarnation. More and more youngsters are now taking to Yogic philosophies of reincarnation and karma.  They are also however becoming more helpful and socially aware. It probably has something to do with wealth, technology, facilities, communication and such things.

 

[ippy]

You are digressing. Now that you agree that lots of people everywhere could be prejudiced in many ways  against many people, it shows that all this has nothing to do with reincarnation. 

Reincarnation is the only hypothesis that provides a level playing field for everyone and explains the inherent inequalities in the world and also provides an equal destiny for everyone. The 'scientific explanation' of chance is neither here nor there.   It is not an explanation in the first place. Merely identifying a mechanism is not an explanation.

Belief in Star Trek is the only hypothesis that provides a level playing field for everyone and explains the inherent inequalities in the world and also provides an equal destiny for everyone. The 'scientific explanation' of chance is neither here nor there.   It is not an explanation in the first place. Merely identifying a mechanism is not an explanation.

Equally as likely to be truly and correct as would be many others that would also replace the word Reincarnation: Unicorns, Winged horses, Leprechauns, Burt's Tea Pot, Father Christmas, The Tooth Fairy, The Wombles, The Clangers, Mr Plod the Policeman, and on and on and on etc etc etc.

But there Sriram I'm only asserting these things without any credible supporting evidence, the same as you, d'yer get it?

Regards ippy

[torridon]

What?!  I am saying that there is no connection between reincarnation and prejudice.  You are just imagining it based on some experience in Laos and Cambodia or whatever. I remember, Hope who is a Christian, had a similar impression based on the few years he had spent in Nepal. He believed (I think) that Christians had a more empathetic view of everyone compared to Hindus.  Many westerners have this (rather superior) attitude  of understanding the East and its prejudices just because they spend a few years there. LOL!

That's condescending bullshit showing you're more interested in defending your position than engaging with actual findings.  I doubt you have ever been on the ground in Laos getting involved with victim support there.  What knowledge I have of the issue is not some armchair imagining of a privileged foreigner, these are not my personal opinions I am relating, but the findings of an international organisation with hundreds of case workers on the ground in dozens of countries. I don't recall their findings in India, particularly, and  throughout Africa the karma connection was absolutely not an issue, but it distinctly was the case in South East Asia.  You can be damn sure these people were not imagining things.

[Sriram]

That's condescending bullshit showing you're more interested in defending your position than engaging with actual findings.  I doubt you have ever been on the ground in Laos getting involved with victim support there.  What knowledge I have of the issue is not some armchair imagining of a privileged foreigner, these are not my personal opinions I am relating, but the findings of an international organisation with hundreds of case workers on the ground in dozens of countries. I don't recall their findings in India, particularly, and  throughout Africa the karma connection was absolutely not an issue, but it distinctly was the case in South East Asia.  You can be damn sure these people were not imagining things.

Look....even assuming that your rather unscientific and casual finding in Laos is correct (which I seriously doubt) this does not establish any direct connection between reincarnation and apathy. This is just your imagination. You want to believe it!  Confirmation bias.....!

In any case, this thread is about a real case of highly probable reincarnation, researched by a reputed university professor.  Regardless of whether anyone likes it or not and finds it palatable or not, if it is true, it is true! 

Therefore, if you happen to find any apathy in any remote corner of the world that you may happen to visit, you will have to find other ways of dealing with it, not by denying reincarnation.

[torridon]

Look....even assuming that your rather unscientific and casual finding in Laos is correct (which I seriously doubt) this does not establish any direct connection between reincarnation and apathy. This is just your imagination. You want to believe it!  Confirmation bias.....!

You're still bullshitting when you could be learning.  My imagination is nothing to do with it. I am merely relaying witness testimony from victims gathered through litigation and case support work over several years.  A fat lot of good you'd be in disability support if you just flatly denied the testimony of the people you were charged with helping.  Try telling them it is all in their imagination.

[Sriram]

You're still bullshitting when you could be learning.  My imagination is nothing to do with it. I am merely relaying witness testimony from victims gathered through litigation and case support work over several years.  A fat lot of good you'd be in disability support if you just flatly denied the testimony of the people you were charged with helping.  Try telling them it is all in their imagination.

You are getting angry! Not a good sign! 

And digressing more and more...!

[ippy]

You are getting angry! Not a good sign! 

And digressing more and more...!

So, you're making silly statements, reincarnation, you even think there's evidence that would support it and then you make posts about reincarnation as though it really happens.

Sriram it's another one of those ideas that if there ever was some verifiable evidence to support this idea we'd never be allowed to hear the end of it by people like yourself, come to that, isn't it you that believes in the blue Elephant man as well; that's quite a track record of soppy beliefs you're holding there Sriram. 

Regards ippy

[Maeght]

In any case, this thread is about a real case of highly probable reincarnation, ....

Highly probable!

[Sriram]

Highly probable!

When we are discussing a specific case of reincarnation verified by reliable scientists....it is highly probable surely!

[Gordon]

When we are discussing a specific case of reincarnation verified by reliable scientists....it is highly probable surely!

How did this 'reliable scientist' verify a case of reincarnation?

[Maeght]

When we are discussing a specific case of reincarnation verified by reliable scientists....it is highly probable surely!

Reincarnation hasn't been verified by him though.

[Sriram]

Reincarnation hasn't been verified by him though.

You expect a video shot of the soul going into another body, along with a Geiger counter reading or something?!

[Gordon]

You expect a video shot of the soul going into another body, along with a Geiger counter reading or something?!

That would be useful, plus of course checks on the equipment and a method that explained the basis of how the data was identified, observed, measured and analysed - just normal research methods stuff.

[torridon]

Reincarnation is the only hypothesis that provides a level playing field for everyone and explains the inherent inequalities in the world and also provides an equal destiny for everyone. The 'scientific explanation' of chance is neither here nor there.   It is not an explanation in the first place. Merely identifying a mechanism is not an explanation.

I think that is an argumentam ad consequentiam.  It looks like you would only be satisfied with an 'explanation' that satisfies some anthropic need for there to be an explanation for something that might not require an explanation.

Better surely, to observe the world and see how it works, rather than imagining some pastiche of how it 'ought'  to work in some sense and then tie yourself in knots because there is no evidence in support of it.

Reincarnation is a flaky idea that persists only because of its cultural value and psychological appeal.  What we do have voluminous evidence for, is replication.  We observe life everywhere, and life is, in part, defined by reproduction.  This is reincarnation, in a sense,  in that a selection of base defining characteristics get incarnated into a new organism at the moment of conception.  For this, we have evidence, and for this, we have mechanism.  However, that the essence of a fully formed a mature individual as in the OP could get ported across space and time into another unrelated individual has no evidence, and no proposed mechanism.

[Maeght]

You expect a video shot of the soul going into another body, along with a Geiger counter reading or something?!

A lot better evidence than presented is needed.

[Sriram]

I think that is an argumentam ad consequentiam.  It looks like you would only be satisfied with an 'explanation' that satisfies some anthropic need for there to be an explanation for something that might not require an explanation.

Better surely, to observe the world and see how it works, rather than imagining some pastiche of how it 'ought'  to work in some sense and then tie yourself in knots because there is no evidence in support of it.

Reincarnation is a flaky idea that persists only because of its cultural value and psychological appeal.  What we do have voluminous evidence for, is replication.  We observe life everywhere, and life is, in part, defined by reproduction.  This is reincarnation, in a sense,  in that a selection of base defining characteristics get incarnated into a new organism at the moment of conception.  For this, we have evidence, and for this, we have mechanism.  However, that the essence of a fully formed a mature individual as in the OP could get ported across space and time into another unrelated individual has no evidence, and no proposed mechanism.

Replication happens only because of reincarnation.   Otherwise why would anything replicate?

[torridon]

Replication happens only because of reincarnation.   Otherwise why would anything replicate?

Cells and molecules replicate for fundamental reasons around energy conservation and surface area to volume ratio.  Mature complex biological systems like badgers or people do not replicate; what they do is reproduce which means going back to an egg cell to replicate. What is incarnated through biological reproduction are base characteristics, eye colour, length of nose etc, not complete organisms or persons.  Replication of an entire biological system would be unfathomably improbable.

[Sriram]

Cells and molecules replicate for fundamental reasons around energy conservation and surface area to volume ratio.  Mature complex biological systems like badgers or people do not replicate; what they do is reproduce which means going back to an egg cell to replicate. What is incarnated through biological reproduction are base characteristics, eye colour, length of nose etc, not complete organisms or persons.  Replication of an entire biological system would be unfathomably improbable.

You are not explaining 'Why' replication or reproduction takes place. Why do species live on and why does complexity arise?

[Gordon]

You are not explaining 'Why' replication or reproduction takes place. Why do species live on and why does complexity arise?

Why do you think that in the context you use it 'why' is a relevant question?