Christians who make my skin crawl!

[ProfessorDavey]

Point of clarification:

Ralph Vaughan Williams was in his early 30s when he edited The English Hymnal - he was an atheist then.

By the way (derail apology) - VW does not make my skin crawl. In my musical hierarchy he is but a step behind Edward Elgar and (only just) in front of William Walton.

Not sure exactly when his (not exactly revelatory) shift from atheism to agnosticism occurred - all I know is he was atheist when at school. You must have some additional info.

Regarding Vaughan Williams, Elgar and Walton, I'd put Vaughan Williams at the top of the pile - I much prefer his work to Elgar's although I know rather less of Walton's work, except the famous ones. I like Vaughan Williams' involvement of folk music and songs in his music. I'm a great fan of his songs and small choral pieces (many of which I have sung). And as much as it has become a hackney'd cliche of ClassicFM-type offerings 'The Lark Ascending' remains sublime.

[Harrowby Hall]

When I listen to Elgar, I hear what it's like to be me. I hear the uncertainties, the passions, the dreams, the attempts ... it's difficult to explain, but it is music which is inside me. Mark Elder called Elgar "the English Mahler". I find Elgar's treatment of the orchestra to be remarkable. He learned orchestration by playing second violin in Midland orchestras, by studying scores and by knowing about the basics of playing of just about every instrument in the orchestra (one of the benefits of growing up in a family which owned a music shop). He received no formal musical education - what you hear is pure Elgar.

I heard VW 5 a year or so ago. Wonderful piece - superbly handled by John Wilson - but it struck me as being intense rather than passionate. The same concert included Elgar's Sea Pictures. Nowhere in the VW symphony, though, is the darkness found in the Elgar.

I love the music of both composers - but Elgar a little more.

[Grace of God]

thank goodness you are not judgemental like some non believers...lol

[Rhiannon]

Not sure exactly when his (not exactly revelatory) shift from atheism to agnosticism occurred - all I know is he was atheist when at school. You must have some additional info.

Regarding Vaughan Williams, Elgar and Walton, I'd put Vaughan Williams at the top of the pile - I much prefer his work to Elgar's although I know rather less of Walton's work, except the famous ones. I like Vaughan Williams' involvement of folk music and songs in his music. I'm a great fan of his songs and small choral pieces (many of which I have sung). And as much as it has become a hackney'd cliche of ClassicFM-type offerings 'The Lark Ascending' remains sublime.

Agree so much with regards to RVW, if there is a heaven then Tge Lark Ascending will be playing on a loop. I’m no expert on classical music whatsoever but that is one piece where I’ve found it worth hunting out recordings by different soloists... it gets interpreted in different ways.

That said his arrangement of the folk song Dives and Lazarus is my favourite piece by him - makes me grieve for something lost, only I don’t know what.

[Grace of God]

thank goodness you are not judgemental like some non believers...lol

that was aimed at the opening statement by the way..

[Aruntraveller]

that was aimed at the opening statement by the way..

LR has many admirable qualities, subtlety in her pronouncements does not rank amongst them 

[Aruntraveller]

I say what I think, however as I have stated many times I have no problem with moderate Christians like my own three girls.

I think that was what I was trying to convey. 

Subtlety isn't every posters strong point.

[Aruntraveller]

Subtlety doesn't always get the point across, imo.

Indeed not, horses for courses and all that.

[Rhiannon]

I don’t like classifying people, it’s more certain behaviours and views that get to me.

I was reading something about a high ranking Orange Order member who went against one of their central beliefs to attend his daughter’s marriage to another woman. Every statement by fellow members that I read was supportive of putting family before beliefs. I think sometimes we get confused between what people say and do and who they really are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43196048

[Anchorman]

I say what I think, however as I have stated many times I have no problem with moderate Christians like my own three girls.

"Moderate"?
By whose definition?

[SusanDoris]

I don’t like classifying people, it’s more certain behaviours and views that get to me.

I was reading something about a high ranking Orange Order member who went against one of their central beliefs to attend his daughter’s marriage to another woman. Every statement by fellow members that I read was supportive of putting family before beliefs. I think sometimes we get confused between what people say and do and who they really are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43196048

AB's obdurate approach is stunningly ridiculous ... ... in my strongly held opinion!

[Grace of God]

LR has many admirable qualities, subtlety in her pronouncements does not rank amongst them 

I gathered that ..lol

[ippy]

Welby.

ippy

[Grace of God]

I hadn't noticed that subtlety was your forte either!

lol I tend to say what I think, what you see is what you get... Not always the most popular way though...

[Anchorman]

I don’t like classifying people, it’s more certain behaviours and views that get to me. I was reading something about a high ranking Orange Order member who went against one of their central beliefs to attend his daughter’s marriage to another woman. Every statement by fellow members that I read was supportive of putting family before beliefs. I think sometimes we get confused between what people say and do and who they really are. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43196048

Gordon Bennett..... Did you HAVE to bring the OO into it? I was having a nice cup of coffee as I read it. Now I'll have to wipe my keyboard.

[Anchorman]

My definition of a moderate Christian is one who doesn't force their faith down the throats of others, or claim something is a fact when it is only a belief.

   




Ah.....
"My definition......"
'Nuff said.....

[SteveH]

lol I tend to say what I think, what you see is what you get... Not always the most popular way though...

Nor indeed the best or wisest. A modicum of hypocrisy oils the wheels of civilised discourse, as somebody-or-other said. I never trust people who make a big virtue of plain-spokenness and what they call "honesty", by which they mean  - hypocritically, by a delicious irony - rudeness. I am aware that I can be rather rude on occasion - I've been suspended from here a few times as a result - but I don't make a virtue of it, and in my defence I think I had a lot of provocation from one poster, and put up with it for a long time before losing my rag.

[Aruntraveller]

   




Ah.....
"My definition......"
'Nuff said.....

To be fair whose definition is it likely to be?

[SteveH]

The OSAS thread has been move to the faith sharing centre where one can't be as frank about a topic as one might wish to be.

The OSAS Christians are amongst the Christian extremists who make my skin crawl, many I have met in my life have behaved very badly indeed! Presumably because they reckoned nothing was going to stop them walking through the pearly gates. The pastor of the Pentecostal church I attended as a kid was an OSAS, as I have mentioned before he touched me inappropriately when I was 14.   

If god exists it is pretty sick if it only permits the so called 'saved' to get into heaven, however bad they are, yet everyone else is sent to hell even good, decent people! 

Complete, utter and probably wilful misunderstanding of OSAS (not that I believe it myself).

[ippy]

And what is your personal understanding of it? I know for a FACT many Christians, who believe in that dogma, do believe they will get to heaven once they are saved, even if they don't lead a good life.

As I see religion you have to go in at the root and as there's no, zero viable evidence to support it, the house of cards syndrome, until these believers find some evidence that would make space to expand their arguments, religious belief is a non-runner.

I see Welby is feeling a bit sick, more than likely because he can't think of a credible excuse, a bit like when you see some of these criminals crying their eyes out, not because they're sorry about what they have done, more crying their eyes out because they got caught. 

Regards ippy

[Robbie]

I didn't know Welby was unwell. What's wrong with him?
Agree that he probably doesn't believe in the OSAS doctrine.

[SusanDoris]

As I see religion you have to go in at the root and as there's no, zero viable evidence to support it, the house of cards syndrome, until these believers find some evidence that would make space to expand their arguments, religious belief is a non-runner.

I see Welby is feeling a bit sick, more than likely because he can't think of a credible excuse, a bit like when you see some of these criminals crying their eyes out, not because they're sorry about what they have done, more crying their eyes out because they got caught. 

Regards ippy

Welby was quoted as talking (presumably in a sermon on Sunday) about children in poverty and what a  terrible thing this was. I did not, however, hear him offer to release any of the large sums of the CofE's money to help.

[ippy]

I didn't know Welby was unwell. What's wrong with him?
Agree that he probably doesn't believe in the OSAS doctrine.

Welby was saying the other day, I can't quote him verbatim, that the abuse of young children and even worse the covering up of the same, it made him feel sick.

Just think how much worse the guilt it would be for him if he was a catholic, they've an almost endless list of shame compared to the still shady past of his lot.

Regards ippy

[Anchorman]

Welby was quoted as talking (presumably in a sermon on Sunday) about children in poverty and what a  terrible thing this was. I did not, however, hear him offer to release any of the large sums of the CofE's money to help.

   



To be fair, I doubt whether Welby has such authority.

[Robbie]

He was on the One Show this evening, I only caught the end of it. Wish I'd seen it all, seemed quite humourous.