Author Topic: Oxfam  (Read 5320 times)

Aruntraveller

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 11:27:19 AM »
?

Your blanket condemnation of people who use prostitutes as the lowest of the low sounded like a kneejerk reaction to me. My response was a paraphrase of a popular song lyric. The reference, given your aversion to music, you probably did not get.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:29:32 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2018, 11:30:48 AM »
Your blanket condemnation of people who use prostitutes as the lowest of the low sounded like a kneejerk reaction to me. My response was a paraphrase of a popular song. The reference, given your aversion to music, you probably did not get.

It is what I think. I just can't imagine why anyone would wish to do so, it is creepy.  :o

Aruntraveller

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 11:35:33 AM »
It is what I think. I just can't imagine why anyone would wish to do so, it is creepy.  :o

The lowest of the low?

I thought you reserved that for paedophiliac scum.

Anyway, people use prostitutes for a variety of reasons, some reasons I find understandable, others less so. To dismiss them all in the fashion you did just sounds somewhat blinkered and prejudiced.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2018, 11:40:00 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2018, 11:37:36 AM »
The lowest of the low?

I thought you reserved that for paedophiliac scum.

Anyway, people us prostitutes for a variety of reasons, some reasons I find understandable, others less so. To dismiss them all in the fashion you did just sounds somewhat blinkered and prejudiced.

I have no problem about being considered blinkered and prejudiced on this issue.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2018, 11:38:45 AM »
I have no problem about being considered blinkered and prejudiced on this issue.

You really didn't need to state the obvious.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

floo

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2018, 11:39:16 AM »
You really didn't need to state the obvious.

 ;D

Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2018, 12:08:22 PM »
I suspect things are clearer now.

The government has (a) used the word "abuse" without evidence of genuine abusive behaviour, (b) introduced the concept "safeguarding" into the discussion and (c) exhibited a Victorian disgust at the concept of sex.

It is now considering using the moral authority it thinks it has acquired to make cuts to the money it gives for overseas aid. How cynical.

I suspect that many of the people working for the charities are young and see little wrong with sexual activity with other young people. If this is so, then it is a matter of education - which is a concern for the charities employing them. Not HM government.

I both agree and disagree with this. If people who needed aid were given some (money, jobs, produce) in exchange for sex then that is abuse - it's an abuse of power and I've no problem with the word used in this context. There does need to be safeguarding in place because people in a position of power and privilege will be in contact with vulnerable and desperate people when working in the field.

This issue for me is that it is clear that Oxfam have reviewed their procedures and have far better and more robust contracts and safeguarding procedures in place.

I also don't think this is a case of young people thinking it's ok to pay for sex with other young people. It's emerged that prositutes had visited an Oxfam-rented property in Chad - at the time when Roland van Hauwermeiren worked there. He was the man in charge of the programme in Haiti too. Seems far more like a case of a bad apple.

I agree that the government are looking at ways of jettisoning Oxfam, or at least clipping their wings. This from Morduant is pretty chilling:

I am going to afford them the opportunity to speak to me tomorrow, but I want to make clear: it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a whistleblowing hotline. It doesn’t matter you’ve got good safeguarding practices in place. If the moral leadership at the top of the organisation isn’t there, we cannot have you as a partner,

So she isn't going to look at the kinds of procedures accepted in any other sphere where people work with the vulnerable, but on her own judgement of what is 'moral'. I don't think the Govt can change the overseas aid budget so I don't think this is about cuts, but is rather being played as an opportunity to exercise control over charities that may be critical of government and a thorn in their side.

And of course it's a distraction from all the other shit. 'Look how on the ball we are here'. No you aren't, fuck off.

jeremyp

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2018, 01:25:29 PM »
Consorting with prostitutes, whether they are vulnerable or not, is DISGUSTING behaviour, people who indulge in that sort of behaviour are the lowest of the low, imo. >:(
What is intrinsically wrong with having sex with somebody in exchange for money? Why are you so disgusted by the idea?
 
Quote
Charity workers are bound to bring the their charity into disrepute if they get involved with prostitutes when they are supposedly bringing aid to those who need it. I am glad the Government is looking into this.
OK, especially if the prostitutes are in desperate straits. But what do you want Oxfam to do about it? As I understand, everybody involved has resigned or been fired. What more is there to do?
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floo

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2018, 01:35:26 PM »
What is intrinsically wrong with having sex with somebody in exchange for money? Why are you so disgusted by the idea?
OK, especially if the prostitutes are in desperate straits. But what do you want Oxfam to do about it? As I understand, everybody involved has resigned or been fired. What more is there to do?

Excuse me whilst I vomit. :o

As for Oxfam, the story isn't going to go away, and nor should it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2018, 01:54:07 PM »
Excuse me whilst I vomit. :o

As for Oxfam, the story isn't going to go away, and nor should it.

I find people using 'while I vomit' in sentences where it is completely unnecessary quite repulsive.

The story is being milked by the right wing who see the charitable sector as a tool of the left. Your blinkered 'morality' just panders to that.

Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2018, 01:54:54 PM »
What is intrinsically wrong with having sex with somebody in exchange for money? Why are you so disgusted by the idea?
 OK, especially if the prostitutes are in desperate straits. But what do you want Oxfam to do about it? As I understand, everybody involved has resigned or been fired. What more is there to do?

Agree with this.

jeremyp

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2018, 01:57:11 PM »
Excuse me whilst I vomit. :o

As for Oxfam, the story isn't going to go away, and nor should it.

I asked you two questions:

1. What is intrinsically wrong about giving somebody money in exchange for sex?

2. What more should Oxfam do about the current story?

You have answered neither of them. Please give my questions some consideration.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2018, 02:18:24 PM »
Let's have a look at why the government might want to do exactly what Floo suggests and replace the current board with their own Yes men/women.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/refugees-suicidal-immigration-policies-family-reunification-refugee-council-oxfam-a8185371.html

Trump will approve.

jeremyp

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2018, 03:06:39 PM »
I can't imagine how anyone cannot see anything wrong in paying someone for sex, I think having sex with a prostitute is morally reprehensible. Besides which, sexually transmitted diseases are rife among prostitutes and their clients.
That is still not an answer. I certainly agree that there are problems with prostitution as it currently exists, but this is more much to do with societal attitudes to it than whether it is intrinsically wrong to pay for sex. So, please, what is intrinsically wrong about paying money for sex. Most (actually, I would say all) of the problems associated with prostitution stem from the fact that it is effectively illegal.

Quote
It would appear, if the Oxfam reports are correct, that there has been a major cover up, and the abuse was more widespread than first thought. I think the Government should insist the whole of the Oxfam top brass should be replaced by people who have no stain on the characters, before giving another penny to the charity.
As far as I can see, there are now two claims of using prostitutes, both involving the same staff who have now gone. Seriously, what more could Oxfam do?

Quote
If I am blinkered, so be it. I have said my piece, and will leave it there. Enjoy yourselves slagging me off. ::)
It's not that you are blinkered, but you keep coming out with opinions that could be described as forthright but you are not prepared to discuss them.
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Robbie

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2018, 07:21:36 PM »
LR: I can't imagine how anyone cannot see anything wrong in paying someone for sex, I think having sex with a prostitute is morally reprehensible. Besides which, sexually transmitted diseases are rife among prostitutes and their clients.

Sex workers are far more careful with regard to STDs than anyone else - because their livelihoods depend on them being clean.

We don't know much about the prostitutes who entertained the Oxfam people in Haiti but they may well have been sophisticated professionals, not poor exploited people.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2018, 08:26:48 PM »
STDs can be an issue for sex workers, but they are an issue for anyone who is sexually active and who changes partner. I think it's unlikely that the prostitutes in Haiti were anything other than desperate, but as already noted the Oxfam worker responsible has a history of using prostitutes and no longer works for the organisation.

Rhiannon

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2018, 08:19:09 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/11/oxfam-foreign-aid-jacob-rees-mogg
Yes the BBC have announced that there is now a question mark on all charities. And Government funding is at risk.

Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2018, 09:56:34 AM »
Yes the BBC have announced that there is now a question mark on all charities. And Government funding is at risk.

I don't see the overseas aid budget disappearing until Mogg is PM. What i do think though is that charities will no longer get the dosh and instead it will be given directly to those countries that we will be relying on getting trade deals with post Brexit our new friends and partners.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2018, 10:13:58 AM »
Why is it that whenever I see or hear or read anything about Rees Mogg I immediately think of the parable pf the Pharisee and the Tax Collector?
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Rhiannon

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2018, 10:18:59 AM »
I was actually thinking of starting a thread to see if anyone has any ideas on how a committed Christian can not only be so, well, unchristian, but actually miss the point of much of what Jesus taught entirely.

jakswan

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2018, 01:26:30 PM »
I watched Marr yesterday and having listened to Govt thought this sounded very bad. Prostitution is legal the orgys clearly should have meant people were dismissed which they were, case closed?

Or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 09:51:22 AM by jakswan »
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Enki

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2018, 02:19:10 PM »
You are right in that one can hardly judge an organization by the behaviour of a few members of staff, but you are wrong to say that it wasn't illegal according to the country that they were in. It is illegal under Haitian law, as well as being against the Oxfam code of conduct and contrary to UN guidelines. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
However the offending individuals seem to have been sacked or have resigned, so, unless something else comes to light, then that should be the end of it in my opinion.

And, it seems, plenty has now come to light, with, no doubt, plenty more to come. I think that it is a good thing that we are now starting to examine more seriously how charities vet their personnel and how they conduct their business.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2018, 02:37:10 PM »
And, it seems, plenty has now come to light, with, no doubt, plenty more to come. I think that it is a good thing that we are now starting to examine more seriously how charities vet their personnel and how they conduct their business.

It will definitely be avoid thing if we avoid the politicisation of it, and look at how charity works across the board.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Oxfam
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2018, 02:49:37 PM »
And, it seems, plenty has now come to light, with, no doubt, plenty more to come. I think that it is a good thing that we are now starting to examine more seriously how charities vet their personnel and how they conduct their business.

You think that charities should ask any prospective employees if they use prostitutes?  :o