Smoking and the decline of the pub

[Harrowby Hall]

A post by Humph in Music was my first love

Every time that I hear this, I close my eyes, I am sitting in the downstairs bar of The Clachan, Mitre Court, City of London with my friends. We are drinking,some are smoking,some are eating peanuts. Now that pub stands empty and boarded up, courtesy of NuLabours smoking ban.

The smoking ban killed the pub.

I would be very rich if I had £1 for every time I have heard this old canard trotted out. The proportion of the population which smokes has been falling steadily over the past decades. According to the ONS in 1974 45% of the adult population were smokers. 21% of men now smoke and a third of the adult population now claim to be ex-smokers.

According to Humph's misrepresentation of reality then, pubs were kept in business by a dwindling band of self-destructive nicotine addicts and the final straw was the desire by misguided politician to make the atmosphere inside alehouses acceptable to normal people. For decades I found the interior of pubs to be so unpleasant - due to cigarette smoke - that I visited them rarely. If my experiences were typical then the smoking ban reinvigorated the pub not killed it off.

If any political decision was responsible for damaging the pub it had come a decade or two before the smoking ban - it was Margaret Thatcher's insistence that breweries get rid of their tied estate.  Whereas breweries had largely used pubs to generate turnover, the property companies saw each pub as a profit centre. Successful pubs were now informal restaurants which also sold beer and which catered for families, not man caves. Thatcher appeared to believe that a pub which only sold one brewery's products was uncompetitive. It never occurred to her to use the same argument to force Marks & Spencer to sell BHS and Debenham products.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

A post by Humph in Music was my first love

If my experiences were typical then the smoking ban reinvigorated the pub not killed it off.

I fail to see how the closing of hundreds of thousands of pubs can be said be "reinvigorating". Go on a pub crawl in the Sevenoaks area & you will find there is a nine mile journey between The Black Horse, Borough Green, and The Anchor Inn, Sevenoaks, because the twelve pubs in between those two establishments have all closed down.

Successful pubs were now informal restaurants which also sold beer and which catered for families, not man caves.

I think you will find that the main function of the pub was for friends to meet outside of their family constraints. Pubs had darts teams, football teams, quiz teams. If you did not like such an environment then you were not forced into using a pub.

Now what are we for the most part left with? Sit down restuarants where a table for one means that you sit on your own all night, and those ghastly Weatherspoons drinking warehouses which cater only for those who want  to neck it down as cheaply as is possible.

[floo]

I am so glad smoking is frowned upon these days, as the damage it has done to the nation's health is appalling. Second hand smoke can be very injurious too. One of the number of reasons my husband and I dislike pubs, and only frequent them for the occasional meal, was because of people smoking in them.

[jeremyp]

I fail to see how the closing of hundreds of thousands of pubs can be said be "reinvigorating".

Can you cite any evidence whatsoever that hundreds of thousands of pubs have closed due to the smoking ban?

Now what are we for the most part left with? Sit down restuarants where a table for one means that you sit on your own all night, and those ghastly Weatherspoons drinking warehouses which cater only for those who want  to neck it down as cheaply as is possible.

Have you been to a pub at all recently? I've been to several, and whilst there isn more of a focus on the food side (a good thing IMO), the traditional pub still exists.

The main reason pubs are closing down is because of the availability of cheaper alcohol in supermarkets. There are too many pubs for the number of customers. It's inevitable some will close down.

[Rhiannon]

Another reason in rural areas at least is that we have effective drink driving laws now, thankfully.

I had a lovely evening in a pub this week, open log fire, stuck to mineral water and nobody complaining about the smoking ban.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

The main reason pubs are closing down is because of the availability of cheaper alcohol in supermarkets. There are too many pubs for the number of customers. It's inevitable some will close down.

There are no supermarkets on that stretch of the A25. What happened was that as one pub closed down, the regulars moved to the next one, until eventually they were all closed down. TBH The New Inn, Sevenoaks was no great loss.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Can you cite any evidence whatsoever that hundreds of thousands of pubs have closed due to the smoking ban?
Have you been to a pub at all recently? I've been to several, and whilst there isn more of a focus on the food side (a good thing IMO), the traditional pub still exists.

The main reason pubs are closing down is because of the availability of cheaper alcohol in supermarkets. There are too many pubs for the number of customers. It's inevitable some will close down.

I mentioned one part of Kent specifically in my last post, the situation in The City of London is I think different. I can remember when there was a pub every two hundred yards or so, now one has to look hard so as to find a pub, as opposed to a restaurant. I can remember as recently as twenty years ago it was quite acceptable in the City to drink at lunchtime, now that does not seem to be the case. FTR I would far rather the company of somebody with a sagging belly & smile on their face & a glass in their hand, rather than the company of a narcissistic bore bragging about gym membership & talking about "cardio vascs".

[jakswan]

Pubs have been in decline since 1905.

Tax on beer to discourage use is having the desired affect.

Of course 30years from now because everyone lives longer the NHS will collapse.

Right get back on the fags and booze people! 

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Pubs have been in decline since 1905.

Tax on beer to discourage use is having the desired affect.

Of course 30years from now because everyone lives longer the NHS will collapse.

Right get back on the fags and booze people! 

I smoke one cigarette a year on "National No Smoking Day" as a gesture of defiance.

[Nearly Sane]

I smoke one cigarette a year on "National No Smoking Day" as a gesture of defiance.

Against what?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Politicians who tell me what to do.

I swig my way through January, too.

[Nearly Sane]

Politicians who tell me what to do.

I swig my way through January, too.

When do you shoot up?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

When do you shoot up?

When our cat runs up on the curtains, a quick squirt & she jumps down.

Note for Floo: I use a water pistol.

[floo]

When our cat runs up on the curtains, a quick squirt & she jumps down.

Note for Floo: I use a water pistol.

?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

?

Floo, if our cat runs up the curtains, we shoot at her with a water pistol so as to prevent further damage to the curtains. She jumps down.

[jeremyp]

There are no supermarkets on that stretch of the A25.

So what? People don't say "let's go out for a drink and then visit the supermarket. They visit the supermarket (which doesn't have to be on the same road as the pub) probably during their weekly shop and take the alcohol back to the house and drink it there.

[jeremyp]

I mentioned one part of Kent specifically in my last post

But without citing any evidence that the pubs closed down because of the drinking ban.

the situation in The City of London is I think different. I can remember when there was a pub every two hundred yards or so, now one has to look hard so as to find a pub,

In the City of London? Really?

If there are fewer pubs in the city, it is more likely due to the change in drinking culture at work. When I first started, going to the pub of a Friday lunchtime was a ritual that everybody did. Now it is far less acceptable to be seen drinking alcohol during your lunch break.

as opposed to a restaurant. I can remember as recently as twenty years ago it was quite acceptable in the City to drink at lunchtime, now that does not seem to be the case.

So not the smoking ban then.

[Maeght]

Politicians who tell me what to do.

You're free to smoke yourself to death just not to inflict it on others. Politicians should be making legislation to protect people from hazards like that.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

In the City of London? Really?

If there are fewer pubs in the city, it is more likely due to the change in drinking culture at work. When I first started, going to the pub of a Friday lunchtime was a ritual that everybody did. Now it is far less acceptable to be seen drinking alcohol during your lunch break.

So not the smoking ban then.

I did say above that the City of London is a different matter. If anything, the smoking ban in the City has led to a camaraderie among smokers that was not there in days of yore. Now most buildings there are surrounded by people chatting & smoking, taking unofficial breaks.

FTR when I was working in the City as a young man, the boys went to the pub most lunchtimes, Friday was when the girls joined us.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

You're free to smoke yourself to death just not to inflict it on others. Politicians should be making legislation to protect people from hazards like that.

I do not smoke.

What I miss are the pubs. There may be some who like to sit in restuarants & who consider any attempt at conversation to be an interference with their meal, I do not want their company any more than they want mine.

[Maeght]

I do not smoke.

Never said you did, but you are free to so the government is not telling you what to do but rightly protecting people.

What I miss are the pubs. There may be some who like to sit in restuarants & who consider any attempt at conversation to be an interference with their meal, I do not want their company any more than they want mine.

Fine, but as others have said there are other reasons for pubs closing rather than the smoking ban. Even if it was the cause people's health should take preference over your pleasure.

[Robbie]

I can still remember when pubs were smoky but most people didn't spend hours and hours in them & a little passive smoking doesn't harm. If it did, we'd all be dead or dying. 

Some pubs have gardens or outdoor areas where smokers are welcome. Other people smoking has never bothered me - there aren't many around now! I have the occasional cigarette which I enjoy but don't inflict it on anyone else, sit by the open back door. At my previous job smokers went outside and built friendships and contacts with those from other departments.

I like pubs with restaurants but we still have quite a few pubs that are traditional.

[Aruntraveller]

I really don't know what the OP is on about.

The industry is adapting to prevailing circumstances. This means it has changed. But isn't that the case with every industry?

As for traditional pubs they are still around and in our area we are lucky enough to have a local brewery (Castle Rock) who combine the best of the old with the new. Plenty of real ale and men with beards and sandals. Dogs even (a pet hate of mine) but traditional in a pub sense, and then good food served as well. Live music a couple of nights, pub quiz etc. Outside area for smoking with those heater things that give you a tan if you stand to close to them.

It's all good from my perspective.

Even our local Wetherspoons is tolerable. NO music, good beer and cheap prices makes for a very pleasant evening out.

[Nearly Sane]

I've written on this board before about my high regard for a good pub. The reduction in numbers is because of a number of contributory factors, and I think the smoking ban was amongst  the least of those. Along with a few that I miss, the vast majority of pubs I have seen go have been no great losses. I dislike all Weatherspoons, but they serve a purpose for others.


In part though a good pub is what you make it. Find one that isn't too bad, and go often to know the bar staff. Make sure you tip them, it's a hard job, and you get better service. Nod to the other regulars you see, and talk to them when it is right. Locals take effort to make yours.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

OK since Robbie has advised me against writing about Brommers too much, let us look at Sham.

The pubs in Sham were mostly large, bustling, working class places with pool tables & dart boards. Most of them are gone, except for the inevitable Weatherspoons in the town centre. Jeremy has asked me for figures regarding pub closures as a result of the smoking ban, that is a pointless question since official stats are not going to say that a government policy which claimed to improve peoples health has had any negative effects. Every landlord of every pub that was closing told me it was the smoking ban which killed his pub.

Yes there are a few small pubs still open, one in Lee next to the Polish shop has kept open because the Lib Dem idea of outlawing outdoor heaters never got off the runway. Go to Forest Hill, and you might find the odd fiercely cliquey place still open, where you are left in no doubt that your place is in the cold bit where the locals don't go.

But the OP arose from my nostalgia for the smoky City of London pubs of forty years ago. To enter into the lower bar, of The Clachan, with its smoke, music, dim lights, and everybody smartly dressed & looking for conversation, was to enter into a mysterious world where strangers became friends. That world has gone, scrubbed clean by those who tell me that the destruction of that happy other world was for everybody's good,

There were never any fights, I cannot even recall any arguments. Yet that agreeable world was destroyed by those who never entered the same, because they disliked that nether world and they saw fit to tell other people what to do.