Smoking and the decline of the pub

[Nearly Sane]

Think on the basis of that post I've done a bit more drinking in Forest Hill than you recently - the Weatherspoons there is still horrible though - The Dartmouth, Sylvan and Signal (the Hob as was) are all fine

[Humph Warden Bennett]

In my experience Wetherspoons pubs are ghastly full stop. They start off OK-The Opera House in Tunbridge Wells being one example, and The Moon on the Hill, in Harrow, being another, but they quickly turn into shit. They remind me of an "affordable" estate of homes, which are crap only eighteen months later.

IMHO the Harvest Moon in Orpington has a useful function in that the drunks & derelicts get in there, rather than in the town's better pubs. The Postage Stamp at Crystal Palace is terrifying, only go in there if you need the loo.

[jeremyp]

Jeremy has asked me for figures regarding pub closures as a result of the smoking ban, that is a pointless question

No it isn't. You made an assertion about why pubs are closing. I think it is only fair that you provide evidence for your assertion. If you have no evidence than this whole thread is just about a guess.

Every landlord of every pub that was closing told me it was the smoking ban which killed his pub.

What? They all come and talk to you, do they?  Of course, a landlord is not going to admit their pub closed because they managed it poorly or were unable to make it attractive for the punters. The smoking ban makes a convenient scapegoat.

But the OP arose from my nostalgia for the smoky City of London pubs of forty years ago. To enter into the lower bar, of The Clachan, with its smoke, music, dim lights, and everybody smartly dressed & looking for conversation, was to enter into a mysterious world where strangers became friends. That world has gone, scrubbed clean by those who tell me that the destruction of that happy other world was for everybody's good,

Ah the nostalgia of the smokey carcinogenic pub that left your clothes reading of stale cigarette smoke for the afternoon and journey home.

There were never any fights

I went in a pub to celebrate a legal drink on my eighteenth birthday - before the smoking ban. A fight broke out between two of the other customers.

I cannot even recall any arguments.

Sounds pretty boring. One of the best bits about going to pubs is having drunken arguments with your mates without realising that everybody is talking bollocks.

Yet that agreeable world was destroyed by those who never entered the same, because they disliked that nether world and they saw fit to tell other people what to do.

That agreeable world was poisoning people.

[floo]

I can still remember when pubs were smoky but most people didn't spend hours and hours in them & a little passive smoking doesn't harm. If it did, we'd all be dead or dying. 

Some pubs have gardens or outdoor areas where smokers are welcome. Other people smoking has never bothered me - there aren't many around now! I have the occasional cigarette which I enjoy but don't inflict it on anyone else, sit by the open back door. At my previous job smokers went outside and built friendships and contacts with those from other departments.

I like pubs with restaurants but we still have quite a few pubs that are traditional.

Passive smoking can do a great deal of harm. My daughter has asthma, it brings on an attack.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

No it isn't. You made an assertion about why pubs are closing. I think it is only fair that you provide evidence for your assertion. If you have no evidence than this whole thread is just about a guess.

I am not the first, nor will I be the last, to use anecdotes.

What? They all come and talk to you, do they?  Of course, a landlord is not going to admit their pub closed because they managed it poorly or were unable to make it attractive for the punters. The smoking ban makes a convenient scapegoat.

Yes I spoke with all the landlords in the pubs that I visited, they knew me by name.

Ah the nostalgia of the smokey carcinogenic pub that left your clothes reading of stale cigarette smoke for the afternoon and journey home.

If you had worked with us, we would have invited you to join us. If you had declined, so be it.

I went in a pub to celebrate a legal drink on my eighteenth birthday - before the smoking ban. A fight broke out between two of the other customers.

We never brawled.

Sounds pretty boring. One of the best bits about going to pubs is having drunken arguments with your mates without realising that everybody is talking bollocks.

Sometimes we put the world to rights, and sometimes we did talk bollocks. We enjoyed both.

That agreeable world was poisoning people.

It was our decision. Those who did not like our world chose to take it from us. They did not have to join us if they did not want to.

To revisit those closed pubs is a strange experience, it is like seeing ghosts of the living. I will always remember those places with fondness.

[Robbie]

Passive smoking can do a great deal of harm. My daughter has asthma, it brings on an attack.

It generally doesn't do any harm apart from making clothes and hair smell, unless someone is sitting in a densely smoky atmosphere for many hours on a regular basis.

If someone has respiratory problems just a little secondary smoke is bad, & they'd avoid it, but not everyone does have respiratory problems. Anyway there are no such places now. Smoking is banned nearly everywhere.

[floo]

It generally doesn't do any harm apart from making clothes and hair smell, unless someone is sitting in a densely smoky atmosphere for many hours on a regular basis.

If someone has respiratory problems just a little secondary smoke is bad, & they'd avoid it, but not everyone does have respiratory problems. Anyway there are no such places now. Smoking is banned nearly everywhere.

Apart from the harm it can do, non smokers can find it very unpleasant being in the presence of someone who is smoking. I am so glad it has been banned in enclosed public places.

[Rhiannon]

I remember when pregnant with my eldest, having lunch in a cafe where a woman at the next table chain smoked and blew the smoke my way. I had to leave. I've never had a problem with smoking in pubs, but in spaces with babies and small children the ban is welcome.

[floo]

I think it should be illegal parents to smoke in their home when the children are present.

Before the dangers of passive smoking were fully realised, our daughter's in-laws smoked when their son was present. He had frequent chest infections, which the doctor suggested might be caused by him inhaling the smoke. They were shocked and gave up the habit, his chest infections were no more. 

[Nearly Sane]

I remember going into O'Neills in Dublin, not the chain we have here, in 2005 about a year after the ban in the Republic and suddenly being amazed that I could see the wall and ceiling. That was the day that I was converted to the ban because it made such a difference

[Nearly Sane]

I think it should be illegal parents to smoke in their home when the children are present.

Before the dangers of passive smoking were fully realised, our daughter's in-laws smoked when their son was present. He had frequent chest infections, which the doctor suggested might be caused by him inhaling the smoke. They were shocked and gave up the habit, his chest infections were no more.

So what you actually want is a ban on smoking in enclosed spaces, including homes by anyone when children are possibly going to be present. Why just children?

[floo]

So what you actually want is a ban on smoking in enclosed spaces, including homes by anyone when children are possibly going to be present. Why just children?

Whilst smoking is legal, it is up to adults if they wish to put their health in jeopardy, providing they do in the privacy of their own home with no children present.

[Nearly Sane]

Whilst smoking is legal, it is up to adults if they wish to put their health in jeopardy, providing they do in the privacy of their own home with no children present.

Again, that doesn't then apply to 'parents' which is what you started with and why just children? Surely your point is saying that people should not have a right to smoke in an enclosed space in the presence of anyone who might object, or in the case of children might be assumed by the state to object?

[floo]

Again, that doesn't then apply to 'parents' which is what you started with and why just children? Surely your point is saying that people should not have a right to smoke in an enclosed space in the presence of anyone who might object, or in the case of children might be assumed by the state to object?

I wouldn't visit anyone I knew smoked in their home. Even if they didn't smoke in my presence, I object to the smell.

[Nearly Sane]

I wouldn't visit anyone I knew smoked in their home. Even if they didn't smoke in my presence, I object to the smell.

Which is irrelevant to the question of what legislation you want to have enacted. Say a couple live together, and one of them smokes, surely by your idea you would support the other being able to legally object?

[floo]

Which is irrelevant to the question of what legislation you want to have enacted. Say a couple live together, and one of them smokes, surely by your idea you would support the other being able to legally object?

Oh for heaven's sake, stop being so pedantic, you are my husband's clone!

Surely if you object to your partner smoking you wouldn't have got with them in the first place?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Apart from the harm it can do, non smokers can find it very unpleasant being in the presence of someone who is smoking. I am so glad it has been banned in enclosed public places.

So you, who has boasted many times about hardly ever visiting pubs, think it a good idea that those of us who enjoyed smoky rooms with music should be banned from enjoying the same? It's not as if you were forced to come and join us.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I remember when pregnant with my eldest, having lunch in a cafe where a woman at the next table chain smoked and blew the smoke my way. I had to leave. I've never had a problem with smoking in pubs, but in spaces with babies and small children the ban is welcome.

I remember in Blackpool in 1995, I was in a cafe & everybody else was puffing away like a chimney. There was a baby in a pushchair present, the pushchair was on top of a table.

[Nearly Sane]

So you, who has boasted many times about hardly ever visiting pubs, think it a good idea that those of us who enjoyed smoky rooms with music should be banned from enjoying the same? It's not as if you were forced to come and join us.

So everyone in the pub liked the smoke? Because I can tell you now that was incorrect.

[floo]

So you, who has boasted many times about hardly ever visiting pubs, think it a good idea that those of us who enjoyed smoky rooms with music should be banned from enjoying the same? It's not as if you were forced to come and join us.

Oh dear!

[Humph Warden Bennett]

So everyone in the pub liked the smoke? Because I can tell you now that was incorrect.

Were you there?

[Nearly Sane]

Were you there?

Many many many times

[Humph Warden Bennett]

I am not talking about you in Dublin in 2005, I am talking about the City of London in 1978. If you did not like the smoky downstairs bar, you could always stay upstairs.

Now of course, the whole place is closed.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not talking about you in Dublin in 2005, I am talking about the City of London in 1978. If you did not like the smoky downstairs bar, you could always stay upstairs.

Now of course, the whole place is closed.

And since it wasn't smoky in 2005 in O'Neils, you seem somewhat confused.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

And since it wasn't smoky in 2005 in O'Neils, you seem somewhat confused.

I remember going into O'Neills in Dublin, not the chain we have here, in 2005 about a year after the ban in the Republic and suddenly being amazed that I could see the wall and ceiling. That was the day that I was converted to the ban because it made such a difference

Is that confusing?