Smoking and the decline of the pub

[Nearly Sane]

I see the smoking lobby is out in force! The NHS is still strapped for cash even if tobacco taxes are making a contribution. Smokers still have to be treated and therefore others who have illnesses, through no fault of their own, are having to wait in the ever increasing queues for attention. There is no excuse for poisoning yourself with tobacco, anymore than there is any excuse for people to drink too much alcohol, use illegal drugs, or become dangerously overweight through overeating.

I'm not a member of a smoking lobby, Where is the evidence for your assertion that the duty doesn't cover costs?

[floo]

I'm not a member of a smoking lobby, Where is the evidence for your assertion that the duty doesn't cover costs?

The NHS is still strapped for cash so tobacco taxes aren't covering the cost of every patient's treatment.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

There is no excuse for poisoning yourself with tobacco, anymore than there is any excuse for people to drink too much alcohol, use illegal drugs, or become dangerously overweight through overeating.

You do not like smoking, you do not like drinking, you do not like pubs, you do not like music. You don't even seem to like chocolate.

So what, please tell me, having spent a lifetime of grumbling, and lecturing, and abstinence, will be the reward for being the least damaged corpse in the morgue?

[Aruntraveller]

You do not like smoking, you do not like drinking, you do not like pubs, you do not like music. You don't even seem to like chocolate.

So what, please tell me, having spent a lifetime of grumbling, and lecturing, and abstinence, will be the reward for being the least damaged corpse in the morgue?

Coffee spurt!

[floo]

You do not like smoking, you do not like drinking, you do not like pubs, you do not like music. You don't even seem to like chocolate.

So what, please tell me, having spent a lifetime of grumbling, and lecturing, and abstinence, will be the reward for being the least damaged corpse in the morgue?

I do like chocolate and I like alcohol in strict moderation.

[Rhiannon]

Quite a lot of pubs in Norfolk being converted to domestic houses, presumably, more money in it for developers.   Don't think it's because of smoking - our nearest pub disappeared, quite sad, as it was several hundred years old, now we're left with more modern pubs, OK, but less atmosphere.

Round here a lot are owned by property companies. Eventually they sack the landlords and convert to housing. Much more money in it.

[Nearly Sane]

The NHS is still strapped for cash so tobacco taxes aren't covering the cost of every patient's treatment.

No one is stating anything about it covering the entirety of the NHS budget - rather what us being questioned is does the duty cover the issues caused by smoking. And I note you again have provided no evidence for your claim that it doesn't

[floo]

No one is stating anything about it covering the entirety of the NHS budget - rather what us being questioned is does the duty cover the issues caused by smoking. And I note you again have provided no evidence for your claim that it doesn't

The Government takes money in taxes from tobacco, but does it put it all into the NHS, or does it go into the pot which covers all Government spending?

[Humph Warden Bennett]

Round here a lot are owned by property companies. Eventually they sack the landlords and convert to housing. Much more money in it.

In the more suburban areas that is the case. In the more rural areas former pubs tend to be converted into showrooms, furniture showrooms being popular along the A21. Last time that I drove along the A21 there was not a real pub between The Rose and Crown at Green Street Green, and some gloomy looking place on the outskirts of Hastings.

[Nearly Sane]

The Government takes money in taxes from tobacco, but does it put it all into the NHS, or does it go into the pot which covers all Government spending?

It's essentially irrelevant since the cost to the govt comes out of the pot that covers all govt spending - so if the income is greater than the spend it increases the amount the govt has and is a net contributor. Any chance of providing evidence for your claim that it doesn't?

[jakswan]

The NHS is still strapped for cash so tobacco taxes aren't covering the cost of every patient's treatment.

Again are you prepared to follow this argument to its natural conclusion. If its found, because smokers, drinkers, are less of drain on the NHS in their lifetimes compared to those that don't, will you then preach that we should all drink and smoke because its good for the NHS.

Don't get me wrong I agree we should discourage smoking and excess drinking however the benefits of doing so are good enough on their own. Making up silly arguments about the cost the NHS could lead you to make some pretty stupid decisions. 

[Maeght]

What about those who were quite happy to work in smoky environments? Remember the case some years ago where a group of gay men were prosecuted for assault following some kind of SM orgy, even though nobody had complained? In the newspapers, there were many letters expressing anger that such a prosecution had been brought because all those taking part had agreed to do so. Surely the barman happy to work in a smoky pub would be in much the same situation?

Irrelevant under workplace legislation and as I have said several times youi cannot have opt outs from it as then there will be employers taking advantage, pressurising employees and so on.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's certainly true that pub numbers have declined according to statistics from the British Beer and Pub associate, but I wonder how they work this out. Once upon a time it was easy to tell between a pub, a restaurant and a cafe. Now, nothing like as easy.

So one of the best restaurants in my city (tables all booked 6 weeks in advance), also has a sizeable bar at the front. Some people treat it as a restaurant, some as a pub, just going there to drink. Also on my way to work through London I occasionally stop at a cafe, which is also a bike repair shop - but also sells beer and wine etc and is a convivial pub atmosphere in the evening.

And despite the reduction in numbers, in many ways we are currently in a golden era for pubs. Think about the 1970s, when CAMRA (headquarters just down the road from me) was set up. Sure there were loads of pubs but also a massive degree of homogeneity - most were run by a small number of breweries, sold a limited variety of poor quality mass produced beer and the range of other drinks was very limited. Today the choice is massive - there is the sell it cheap, every one is the same Weatherspoons - but also loads of one off pubs and bars selling a huge variety of often changing beer. Many, of course, are now microbreweries, so you can try beer actually made on the premises. The variety of other drinks has changed beyond recognition, with many having extensive lists of wine by the glass, plus others specialising in a bewildering array of whisky or gin.

 

[ProfessorDavey]

Round here a lot are owned by property companies. Eventually they sack the landlords and convert to housing. Much more money in it.

The three pubs near me that have closed recently have all been knocked down and replaced with high density housing - one of which is planned to have a M&S food outlet on the ground floor.

In each case the pub was relatively modern, built at the same time as surrounding housing of largely 1950s vintage. Not sure if any of them is a great loss - I'd only been on one of them over decades. There was a bit of an outcry in each case, but I suspect this largely came people who'd probably never (or very, very rarely) been in them. Each was a classic example of a pub culture long gone.

[floo]

I am very grateful the nearest pub is about a mile away, so we don't get any rowdy behaviour at chucking out time.

[SteveH]

I am very grateful the nearest pub is about a mile away, so we don't get any rowdy behaviour at chucking out time.

You're a real bundle of fun, aren't you? The vast majority of pubs are well-run, and the vast majority of pubgoers well-behaved.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

What I do find interesting reading this discussion is that the local pub-which most of our media has told us has been the much loved and quintessentially English main hub of local life social life for centuries-has in many places disappeared, yet nobody apart from me on this board seems to miss it. I can remember our local pub not that long ago being the place where the Anglican church community met after services, where the local amateur rep met after rehearsals, the local Parish councillors would sometimes hold impromptu surgeries, and the Landlord whipping up a darts team, a quiz team, and even a tug of war team.  Now the pub has been demolished, for housing. It
will not be coming back.

[floo]

Pubs obviously aren't as popular as they were, for whatever reason, I can think of quite a few in a ten mile radius of our neighbourhood, which are no longer used as such.

[ProfessorDavey]

What I do find interesting reading this discussion is that the local pub-which most of our media has told us has been the much loved and quintessentially English main hub of local life social life for centuries-has in many places disappeared, yet nobody apart from me on this board seems to miss it.

I think you are misinterpreting what I and others are saying and also misunderstanding the 'local pub'. There are certainly places where there was only one pub and now there is none - that is a genuine loss.

But that isn't the situation in the vast majority of places, particularly our towns and cities. In this case there are perhaps 10 pubs when there used to be 12. That isn't a fundamental loss, but just a reduction in number - and given that there tends to be more diversity in provision now in comparison with the bog standard 'tied' pub of the 1970s there is arguably more choice not less.

And again in the vast majority of places, the 'local pub' isn't necessarily the one nearest, but the one in the relatively local vicinity that you like the most. In fact throughout my life, living in a whole range of places and with long periods where pub-going was a very regular activity, I never consider my nearest pub to be my 'local' - the one I tended to frequent most.

I can remember our local pub not that long ago being the place where the Anglican church community met after services, where the local amateur rep met after rehearsals, the local Parish councillors would sometimes hold impromptu surgeries, and the Landlord whipping up a darts team, a quiz team, and even a tug of war team.  Now the pub has been demolished, for housing. It will not be coming back.

And except in the small number of cases where the only pub has gone that still goes on. I can think of plenty of pubs near me (I live in a small city) that are the go-to place after evening activities, that hold quiz teams (virtually all seem to) etc etc.

And yes the pub nearest me has also been demolished - but guess what I never went into it, even in the days when I'd probably frequent a pubs 3-4 times a week. It was never my 'local'.

[Robbie]

We have good pub near us where people congregate to drink as they did in bygone years which also does food and has live music. Can't say I've been there for a while but used to go, my kids and sister's kids loved it and still do when they get together.