How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill

[SteveH]

God is more sinful than any human if the accounts in the Bible about its behaviour were true. Who/what is going to take away its sins?

Sin is rebellion against God. God can't rebel against God's self.

[floo]

Sin is rebellion against God. God can't rebel against God's self.

Rebelling against the evil Biblical god, if it exists, is like rebelling against Hitler.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

God is more sinful than any human if the accounts in the Bible about its behaviour were true. Who/what is going to take away its sins?

Yes you've said this before but it never goes beyond assertion.

The Christian view is this though. The natural world is sullied by human misuse, who also misuse themselves and each other, indeed they go as far as to misuse religion and science.

The Garden of Eden story is a parable, an unsullied world a relationship with God and then mankind breaks the trust.

Stranger dwells on the expulsion and the damnation of all sinners to hell but God has never damned all to hell.

Human history has been that humanity mucks the world up a world that was not thus. Legally God could have said, ''you've messed up that's it, be gone with you.'' Jesus shouts that he hasn't.

So what sins do you think God is guilty of?

[Stranger]

You stand condemned for your own sin but there is salvation in Jesus Christ who takes our sin.

Which changes the basic point not one jot.

This god holds us to a standard that is clearly unrealistic for humans to achieve (otherwise some would) and then compounds its unfairness by offering a "get out of jail free" card, not to those who did better than others in its test, but rather to those who swallow, hook, line, and sinker, what looks for all the world like an utterly absurd fairy tale.

This is exactly why I'm so amazed and saddened by Christians - they really don't get how utterly daft, and glaringly contradictory, the whole story is.

Alas there are those with placards with
'I want my sin'' and I want sin'', 'I don't want God' and even 'I have no sin'....

Where?

However this is about Finding God. Something your never going to want to do if you wish to continue rejecting God.

I'm not rejecting anything at all except at totally ridiculous, incoherent, contradictory, fantastical story, for which there is absolutely no evidence or sound rational argument.

It's just way, way too silly to take seriously...

[Stranger]

Sin is rebellion against God. God can't rebel against God's self.

Nobody can rebel against a fictional character.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nobody can rebel against a fictional character.

Prove God is a fictional character, also how would you know if you say you cant rule him out and your not prepared to find out if he really is?

[Stranger]

Human history has been that humanity mucks the world up a world that was not thus. Legally God could have said, ''you've messed up that's it, be gone with you.'' Jesus shouts that he hasn't.

Which uncovers a whole new level of injustice and contradiction. An omnipotent, omniscient creator would also be omni-responsible. There can be no free will with respect to such a being.

So what sins do you think God is guilty of?

We start with genocide...

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

At the very heart That was my question, and your reply is a gloss over of all the things you think are wrong, no depth to your reply, a typical ( as our Vlad is fond of saying ) Dawkinsian reply.

The idea of a god that is just, fair, and loving is a direct contradiction to the idea that humans all (except for one, who was god incarnate, so doesn't really count) stand condemned by said god for being 'sinners' and that we all need 'saving' by accepting the Jesus' sacrifice (dying for our sins and all that malarkey) by believing or 'having faith'.

We are all sinners, but lets take religion out of the equation, none of us is perfect, we all suffer ( to a man woman and child ) from greed, jealousy, envy, hatred, at the very heart of Christianity we are taught to guard against these sins, these imperfections, Christians have Our Lord as a template, we try to  behave as near to him and his teachings as is humanly possible, being a Christian is no get out clause, but I do agree with you that there are some Christians who do think this way.

The point being that if 100% of people fail a test, then it cannot possibly be said to be a fair and appropriate test for people. It cannot be a realistic choice for people to live up to god's standard (otherwise at least some people would do so). Condemning us for something we have no choice about is unjust and unfair.

A test, life is a bloody test, from the minute you are born until the day you shuffle off, it is all about how you deal with that test, the Bible is littered with stories about how we deal with that, The Prodigal son, poor old Job, Ecclesiastes.

In short, if god was going to make a people and then test them against some standard, it should have made better people or devised a more realistic test.

Make better people, a more realistic test, I honestly don't know how to answer this one.

Some Christians further compound the injustice of it all by blaming "original sin" - some couple eating the wrong fruit long ago (or whatever that story is supposed to represent) that somehow (but undoubtedly due to a choice of this god) turned us all into 'sinners' - which is even more unjust and unfair.

Aye some! But original sin is a crock, and then you witter on about the Adam and Eve Myth, that story is there to make you think, think deeply about the condition of man, other Myths are available, but as usual this one is brought up time and time again, why because you don't want to study and read the Bible, you just want to gloss over.

ETA: Oh and then there's the fact that even if all this is true - then it is a further injustice that there is no clear and unmistakeable message from god that warns us of it. All we have is one religion, divided into many sects, cults and denominations, amongst many others, which in turn are just one set of superstitions amongst many more. All without any objective indication that it is true...

No unmistakable message, well what I see, at the very heart of Christianity is to fight injustice, to guard against greed, Love for our fellow man, compassion, to take a good hard look at ourselves before we start pointing the finger at others.

You would find this out yourself, if you stopped looking at all the negatives and started exploring the good.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which changes the basic point not one jot.

This god holds us to a standard that is clearly unrealistic for humans to achieve (otherwise some would) and then compounds its unfairness by offering a "get out of jail free" card, not to those who did better than others in its test, but rather to those who swallow, hook, line, and sinker, what looks for all the world like an utterly absurd fairy tale.

This is exactly why I'm so amazed and saddened by Christians - they really don't get how utterly daft, and glaringly contradictory, the whole story is.

Where?

I'm not rejecting anything at all except at totally ridiculous, incoherent, contradictory, fantastical story, for which there is absolutely no evidence or sound rational argument.

It's just way, way too silly to take seriously...

Again rules out all personal responsibility since Christianity states that mankind trusted(loved) God then breeched that trust. Christ is God taking the consequences of that breech onto himself. But if you still want your rebellion against God and don't want him God will not make you because that eliminates your capacity for trust.

Those are the elements lacking from your account and thats where I depart from it.

On another point how does offering everyone a get out of jail free card compound unfairness? God has not settled on merely intellectual assent but the capacity to love and free will.

[ippy]

Well said, Stranger. Applause.

Ippy, I avoid the hassle of Vlad's posts by not reading them!! 

Hi Susan, logically you're right but I can't help it, there's some sort of horrible fascination watching each time someone responds to his outpourings how he manages to give such incongruous responses to anything asked of him.

He has so little understanding of the world about him and this turns his clashes into something like digging a hole through two short planks of wood with a small pin, in the hope that one day the hole will have gone all of the way through.

One of his most obvious inabilities is that, to this day he has never been able to understand exactly what secularism is, I've seen many efforts taken to enlighten him on this including my own but he has never progressed.

Kind regards ippy

[Stranger]

We are all sinners, but lets take religion out of the equation, none of us is perfect, we all suffer ( to a man woman and child ) from greed, jealousy, envy, hatred, at the very heart of Christianity we are taught to guard against these sins, these imperfections, Christians have Our Lord as a template, we try to  behave as near to him and his teachings as is humanly possible, being a Christian is no get out clause, but I do agree with you that there are some Christians who do think this way.

I don't think that anybody, least of all me, is claiming that humans don't have what most of us regard as imperfections. We certainly do have greed, jealousy, envy, hatred, and so on - things that we'd be much better off without or at least minimizing.

A test, life is a bloody test, from the minute you are born until the day you shuffle off, it is all about how you deal with that test, the Bible is littered with stories about how we deal with that, The Prodigal son, poor old Job, Ecclesiastes.

It's also littered with unedifying tales of a god of war, slaughter, genocide and the like - alongside very silly sets of rules and harsh punishments for imaginary crimes ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live").

Aye some! But original sin is a crock, and then you witter on about the Adam and Eve Myth, that story is there to make you think, think deeply about the condition of man, other Myths are available, but as usual this one is brought up time and time again, why because you don't want to study and read the Bible, you just want to gloss over.

I have read the bible (and studied it in my youth). Returning to it, I find it incoherent - yes, it's not without it's inspiring bits, but it's by no means consistent, nor does it actually deliver a single coherent message. I often wish Christians would read their bibles - I mean to see what it says, rather than to confirm what they already 'know'.

No unmistakable message, well what I see, at the very heart of Christianity is to fight injustice, to guard against greed, Love for our fellow man, compassion, to take a good hard look at ourselves before we start pointing the finger at others.

Which are all things that I cannot argue against. I did say that I was happy to accept that not all Christians shared the views I was outlining.

What I don't get is why you need to believe in a god in order to do all this or why you'd identify with the god of the bible (other than a carefully cherry-picked version).

[ippy]

Prove God is a fictional character, also how would you know if you say you cant rule him out and your not prepared to find out if he really is?

N P F again Vlad.

Regards ippy

[Stranger]

Again rules out all personal responsibility since Christianity states that mankind trusted(loved) God then breeched that trust.

If what 'mankind' did in the past, is affecting how this god of yours judges individuals now, then that is a further injustice.

Christ is God taking the consequences of that breech onto himself.

Since the consequences would have been unjustly visited on us in the first place, that really isn't very impressive.

But if you still want your rebellion against God and don't want him God will not make you because that eliminates your capacity for trust.

I can't rebel against something I don't believe exists. Once again - I see absolutely no reason to take this seriously and many, many reasons (already given) to regard it as a very silly fairy tale.

On another point how does offering everyone a get out of jail free card compound unfairness?

Because it's apparently offered for being very gullible and swallowing multiple contradictions - without a shred of evidence or sound reasoning.

[wigginhall]

It reminds me of the 3-card trick, or Find the Lady.   It's impossible to get it right, because the cards are stacked against you.   The solution is to walk away, or in other words, reject the initial premises.

Initial premise - no man is good.   Mark 10: 18.

[ippy]

Dear Stranger,

At the very heart That was my question, and your reply is a gloss over of all the things you think are wrong, no depth to your reply, a typical ( as our Vlad is fond of saying ) Dawkinsian reply.

We are all sinners, but lets take religion out of the equation, none of us is perfect, we all suffer ( to a man woman and child ) from greed, jealousy, envy, hatred, at the very heart of Christianity we are taught to guard against these sins, these imperfections, Christians have Our Lord as a template, we try to  behave as near to him and his teachings as is humanly possible, being a Christian is no get out clause, but I do agree with you that there are some Christians who do think this way.

A test, life is a bloody test, from the minute you are born until the day you shuffle off, it is all about how you deal with that test, the Bible is littered with stories about how we deal with that, The Prodigal son, poor old Job, Ecclesiastes.

Make better people, a more realistic test, I honestly don't know how to answer this one.

Aye some! But original sin is a crock, and then you witter on about the Adam and Eve Myth, that story is there to make you think, think deeply about the condition of man, other Myths are available, but as usual this one is brought up time and time again, why because you don't want to study and read the Bible, you just want to gloss over.

No unmistakable message, well what I see, at the very heart of Christianity is to fight injustice, to guard against greed, Love for our fellow man, compassion, to take a good hard look at ourselves before we start pointing the finger at others.

You would find this out yourself, if you stopped looking at all the negatives and started exploring the good.

Gonnagle.

Gonners, Stranger has given you a roots and branches answer to this post of yours, I would only like to add that you're obviously, in spite of being a Scot, a very decent caring individual but your thinking appears to me, to be naive in the extreme.

I doubt I'll ever be seen as a paragon of virtue but at the same time I do live as reasonable a moral and ethical life as most other people such as yourself, all without having any kind of belief in religion and I can't see why believers such as yourself for some reason, best known to yourselves, think we, all of us can only lead an equitable moral and ethical life by having a belief in something mythical, magical or superstition based.

It's not like there's a shred of viable evidence that would support your religious beliefs or lend any weight to arguments for them.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If what 'mankind' did in the past, is affecting how this god of yours judges individuals now, then that is a further injustice.

No because justice, it could be argued, could have been to completely exclude for ever and everyone from God's presence....are you beginning to see the objections to personal ideas of justice being the benchmark?
You are conflating original sin with personal sin.
original sin is a fourth century concept. I think that my answer to this would best be summed up to one of your earlier claims that God should have made better humans. Funnily enough Christianity starts with humans in perfect communion with God and they spoilt the image. Think Movie stars and Botox. Ah I hear you object, their spoiling of themselves is due to their human environment...In which case your excuse for them and their agency actually produces a version of original sin.

Christ of course is God's answer to the human predicament.

[floo]

Yes you've said this before but it never goes beyond assertion.

The Christian view is this though. The natural world is sullied by human misuse, who also misuse themselves and each other, indeed they go as far as to misuse religion and science.

The Garden of Eden story is a parable, an unsullied world a relationship with God and then mankind breaks the trust.

Stranger dwells on the expulsion and the damnation of all sinners to hell but God has never damned all to hell.

Human history has been that humanity mucks the world up a world that was not thus. Legally God could have said, ''you've messed up that's it, be gone with you.'' Jesus shouts that he hasn't.

So what sins do you think God is guilty of?

Read the OT, the god character featured there is a very nasty piece of work, flooding a whole planet is the work of a psycho as are its sycophants like Abraham and his offspring, who lie, cheat and are sexually active with women who probably have no say in the matter!

I don't actually believe the god character exists as it seems like a very human production.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If what 'mankind' did in the past, is affecting how this god of yours judges individuals now, then that is a further injustice.

Since the consequences would have been unjustly visited on us in the first place, that really isn't very impressive.

I can't rebel against something I don't believe exists. Once again - I see absolutely no reason to take this seriously and many, many reasons (already given) to regard it as a very silly fairy tale.

Because it's apparently offered for being very gullible and swallowing multiple contradictions - without a shred of evidence or sound reasoning.

Brilliant.
A spanking ad hominem to end with....and coming from a set of arguments which often end in we don't know.
God is omni responsible? Tell that to the magistrates.
Can't rebel against something you don't believe in? isn't that the problem concerning the climate?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Read the OT, the god character featured there is a very nasty piece of work, flooding a whole planet is the work of a psycho as are its sycophants like Abraham and his offspring, who lie, cheat and are sexually active with women who probably have no say in the matter!

I don't actually believe the god character exists as it seems like a very human production.

The flooding thing could be a story Floo, there were floods but they would be a folk memory.
Yes people are like that but they aren't damned to hell because as even the OT says they turn to God.
Yes the OT can be a bit nasty but it is about a chosen nation and mankind getting itself in the poo with input on the importance of a personal relationship with God.

It is easy to fall into the temptation of the modern fallacy but think of the people who read the OT, were shocked by it, became atheists and then developed the Atom bomb which must have incinerated thousands of babies.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Since the consequences would have been unjustly visited on us in the first place, that really isn't very impressive.

The consequences of messing up the environment and personal relationships are 'not visited on us'. Just like Botox is not visited upon a celebrity opting for it.

I want to disregard God, be myself without his interference and yet have all the benefits from him and of him? Is that logical, just or fair minded?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

N P F again Vlad.

Regards ippy

Since none of the usual Fallacy Police seem to want to make an arrest here let me do a citizens one.

An NPF is when you say you cannot disprove X therefore X must exist.

Now take what I said

Prove God is a fictional character, also how would you know if you say you cant rule him out and your not prepared to find out if he really is?

I am not saying he cant prove God is fictional I am just asking him to prove it because he has positively asserted it an therefore has the burden of proof.

F minus.

[Stranger]

No because justice, it could be argued, could have been to completely exclude for ever and everyone from God's presence...

It could be argued only by somebody with no normal human sense of justice (or someone blinded by faith). There is a reason why 'collective punishment' is considered to be a war crime.

...are you beginning to see the objections to personal ideas of justice being the benchmark?

I didn't say anything about a personal sense of justice. I've already explain this. If you want more information use google scholar to look for human sense of fairness or similar - much has been written about it.

You are conflating original sin with personal sin.

Nope - that would be you and your imaginary friend.

original sin is a fourth century concept. I think that my answer to this would best be summed up to one of your earlier claims that God should have made better humans. Funnily enough Christianity starts with humans in perfect communion with God and they spoilt the image. Think Movie stars and Botox. Ah I hear you object, their spoiling of themselves is due to their human environment...In which case your excuse for them and their agency actually produces a version of original sin.

I've already addressed this several times. If we are (by nature) sinners, then the test is unfair. It matters not one jot how we came to be that way; unless we each personally chose it, then it is unjust to judge us for it. Modern humans are not individually responsible for spoiling the "perfect communion", so we should not be held responsible for the consequences.

This isn't complicated.

Christ of course is God's answer to the human predicament.

To punish somebody else for our "crimes" (which we shouldn't have been judged for anyway, for the reasons given above) is equally unjust - not to mention plane, bloody stupid with shades of sadomasochism. To make this farcical parody of justice conditional on us believing in all this total twaddle is as sick and twisted as it is ridiculous.

God is omni responsible? Tell that to the magistrates.

If you can come up with a coherent notion of 'free will' that makes any sense from the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator, feel free to provide it.

Can't rebel against something you don't believe in? isn't that the problem concerning the climate?

Of course you can't rebel against something you don't believe in - doubly so if said something is utterly absurd. What's the climate got to do with the price of eggs?

The consequences of messing up the environment and personal relationships are 'not visited on us'. Just like Botox is not visited upon a celebrity opting for it.

Once again for the rousing chorus...

If we are (by nature) sinners, then the test is unfair. It matters not one jot how we came to be that way; unless we each personally chose it, then it is unjust to judge us for it. Modern humans are not individually responsible for spoiling the "perfect communion", so we should not be held responsible for the consequences.

I want to disregard God, be myself without his interference and yet have all the benefits from him and of him? Is that logical, just or fair minded?

Once again for the hard-of-thinking/reaading (not sure which it is): I don't want to disregard 'god' - I don't believ there is such a being to disregard. Form that, it logically followes that I don't want any of the benefits from or of (whatever that means) 'him' - I don't believe there are any of those either.

There really is precious little point in a discussion where you say something, I respond and say why I disagree, you then ignore it and just repeat the same stuff again.

You'd also do yourself a favour if you stopped and thought before replying - then, at the very least, you might not have to post three replies to one of my posts.

You might even learn something.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Gonners, Stranger has given you a roots and branches answer to this post of yours, I would only like to add that you're obviously, in spite of being a Scot, a very decent caring individual but your thinking appears to me, to be naive in the extreme.

I doubt I'll ever be seen as a paragon of virtue but at the same time I do live as reasonable a moral and ethical life as most other people such as yourself, all without having any kind of belief in religion and I can't see why believers such as yourself for some reason, best known to yourselves, think we, all of us can only lead an equitable moral and ethical life by having a belief in something mythical, magical or superstition based.

It's not like there's a shred of viable evidence that would support your religious beliefs or lend any weight to arguments for them.

Sorry old son but the question put to The Stranger was "at the very heart" and the answers I got were the basic atheist lets look at the bad bits of religion, he tells me he has studied the Bible, well I see no evidence, and just for the record, I am still studying, it would take a life time just to fully understand the Four Gospels, further I don't preach "I am better than you because I am a Christian" only that my faith my Christianity is my path, other paths are available.

And to end old son, when you say there is not a shred of evidence, I would say every single person on this forum is religious, it is what we are, it is how we think, someone a while back showed us some evidence that our very distant cousins showed signs of religion, the monkey or chimpanzee, we are Homo religious, me, I ask why? And please don't bother with the stock answer " we are mean seeking creatures who needed a reason for the volcano erupting".

Gonnagle.

PS: I like being human, in my next reincarnation if not a human then a Labrador with a good owner who does not believe in castration

Sorry forgot to add, definitely not an atheist, well maybe a cheerful atheist, always wondered why Sir Terry thought of himself as a cheerful atheist,

where the falling Angel meets the rising ape.

[Stranger]

Sorry old son but the question put to The Stranger was "at the very heart" and the answers I got were the basic atheist lets look at the bad bits of religion...

I'm rather surprised at this. The answer I gave to you pretty much agreed with what you seem to think of as the "very heart" of your faith.

...he tells me he has studied the Bible, well I see no evidence...

You seemed to be presenting the bible as entirely positive and I pointed out that it wasn't all positive. Do you disagree? IIRC you've criticized others for condemning homosexuality which the bible also condemns.

And I still don't understand why you need to believe in a god (let alone the biblical one) to support the ideas you presented as the the "very heart". I'm actually curious.

And to end old son, when you say there is not a shred of evidence, I would say every single person on this forum is religious...

I would say all humans have a tendency to be superstitious, rather than religious in particular. There are good (evolutionary) reasons why this may be the case but you don't seem to like them...

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If we are (by nature) sinners, then the test is unfair.

Again, what test? and surely we live in a universe with consequences, You are asking for suspension of consequence? How would the universe be then. What are the consequences of turning away from God.

And yes for everything you've done  you get an eternity in a luxury resort villa enjoying the emanences of God's energies without having to put up with him himself, cake....and eat it too!!!
Christ takes the consequences on himself as you do if your boy smashes the school 60 inch OLED but in this case with himself. The way is now open to the Father.