How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill

[wigginhall]

Dear Wigs,

Must just be me but I think the man is talking complete sense but then maybe the NHS is in fine fettle, maybe there is no childhood obesity, maybe our kids teeth are not rotten by the age of five, maybe we are not on the brink of Brexit because we want to get rid of all those Johnny foreigners, maybe all those terrorist attacks have absolutely nothing to do with me, I am innocent m'lud, I could go on and on, climate change etc etc etc, but no, I don't think the man is talking about us now having indoor plumbing.

Gonnagle.

Well, the title refers to mental illness.  So are we more anxious and depressed than people in the 19th century or the 18th century?   I have no idea.   I think that people who were depressed weren't treated all that well, women were legally nullified when they got married, kids were sent to work at very young ages, the Victorian NHS had a few problems.   So things have got worse? 

[jeremyp]

I've just reread my reply and thinking about the from the original post

The modern world is wonderful in many ways (dentistry is good, cars are reliable, we can so easily keep in touch from Mexico with our grandmother in Scotland) – but it’s also powerfully and tragically geared to causing a high background level of anxiety and widespread low-level depression.

I wonder if the problem is not that modern society is geared to generating these problems so much as that they come to the fore when other problems are resolved. For example, heart disease is a big killer today but, in previous centuries other things killed people more frequently. For instance, until about a hundred years ago, one in four women died in childbirth. Is the answer to heart disease to go back to the time when 25% of female mortality was due to bringing new life into the world? No.

Similarly, people might get angst today about not being extremely rich, but it's better than typhoid.

[jeremyp]

the NHS is in fine fettle

Well, in this country it exists. In the USA, if you are poor you don't have healthcare.

maybe there is no childhood obesity

And sixty years ago diseases of malnutrition like rickets were the issue.

maybe our kids teeth are not rotten by the age of five

They are not, thanks to modern dentistry.

maybe we are not on the brink of Brexit because we want to get rid of all those Johnny foreigners

That's a political issue.

maybe all those terrorist attacks have absolutely nothing to do with me

Thirty years ago, there were terrorist attacks.

climate change

Well, at least we know about it, and that is the first step to fixing it.

[wigginhall]

There's also the implication that we are more anxious and depressed than previously.   Obviously, I haven't read the original, but I wonder if he backs this up in some way.   How would we know this?   I think in 1900 life expectancy was in the 40s and 50s, so is Botton saying that this was a better time?   How, where, who? 

[floo]

Masturbation?

I think that would only be Floo.

What are you on about now?

[jeremyp]

What are you on about now?

Masturbation is achieving sexual gratification by self stimulation.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Wigs,

Must just be me but I think the man is talking complete sense but then maybe the NHS is in fine fettle, maybe there is no childhood obesity, maybe our kids teeth are not rotten by the age of five, maybe we are not on the brink of Brexit because we want to get rid of all those Johnny foreigners, maybe all those terrorist attacks have absolutely nothing to do with me, I am innocent m'lud, I could go on and on, climate change etc etc etc, but no, I don't think the man is talking about us now having indoor plumbing.

Gonnagle.

My great great grandmother buried nine of her fifteen kids, the first of which was born when she was sixteen.

Now tell me again how much worse off me and mine are.

[floo]

Masturbation is achieving sexual gratification by self stimulation.

I am aware of that, and have no problem with it. Far better to do that than have sex with a prostitute!

[jeremyp]

I am aware of that, and have no problem with it. Far better to do that than have sex with a prostitute!

You're against everything. I assumed you would be against masturbation as a part of "everything".

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp and Wigs,

Nope, sorry but I don't see where you are going with comparing things now to what they were like in ye olden days, we have problems now, how do we fix them, and I honestly don't think Mr De Botton is some kind of doom monger, he is just making some very valid points.

Take his point about the media, today oxfam is all over the front page but for decades that charity has been a real force for good in this little world of ours, why is it not front page about the millions of children's lives it has saved.

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

Dear Jeremyp and Wigs,

Nope, sorry but I don't see where you are going with comparing things now to what they were like in ye olden days, we have problems now, how do we fix them, and I honestly don't think Mr De Botton is some kind of doom monger, he is just making some very valid points.

Take his point about the media, today oxfam is all over the front page but for decades that charity has been a real force for good in this little world of ours, why is it not front page about the millions of children's lives it has saved.

Gonnagle.

The problem I have is that his solution seems to be to go back to a version of the olden days.

 The other problem I have is that people seem to be into self flagellation. It's not enough to acknowledge we have problems (which are not as serious as olden day problems), some people want to flagellate us in spite of the fact that we have generally improved things over the last few centuries.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jeremyp,

The problem I have is that his solution seems to be to go back to a version of the olden days.

Sorry but I don't see that at all, all I see is a man looking at present day problems and showing some ideas on how to fix them, and I don't see any mileage in comparing the olden days to what we are like presently.

His point on Secularism, it would be great if we could all stand in awe of the wonders of Earth and the Universe, we might then try and take better care of this little Earth, we need more Blue Planet programmes, and it is not our kids who need educating it is us, future generations are going to look back and ask, why are there no elephants, why is it I can only see a polar bear in a zoo, his point on Secularism is a wake up call to fill the void of religion with something akin to it, a zeal for this little planet we all inhabit.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

Dear Jeremyp and Wigs,

Nope, sorry but I don't see where you are going with comparing things now to what they were like in ye olden days, we have problems now, how do we fix them, and I honestly don't think Mr De Botton is some kind of doom monger, he is just making some very valid points.

Take his point about the media, today oxfam is all over the front page but for decades that charity has been a real force for good in this little world of ours, why is it not front page about the millions of children's lives it has saved.

Gonnagle.

I don't think anyone is denying that there are problems today, but Botton seems to be saying that things are worse.   Worse than when?

OK, forget olden days, when I was born, there was no NHS, and my mum remembered paying a shilling a week for some treatment, and a shilling was a lot for them.   So are you saying that times were better then?   Eh?

[Rhiannon]

Dear Jeremyp,


Sorry but I don't see that at all, all I see is a man looking at present day problems and showing some ideas on how to fix them, and I don't see any mileage in comparing the olden days to what we are like presently.

His point on Secularism, it would be great if we could all stand in awe of the wonders of Earth and the Universe, we might then try and take better care of this little Earth, we need more Blue Planet programmes, and it is not our kids who need educating it is us, future generations are going to look back and ask, why are there no elephants, why is it I can only see a polar bear in a zoo, his point on Secularism is a wake up call to fill the void of religion with something akin to it, a zeal for this little planet we all inhabit.

Gonnagle.

But religion put men at the top of the tree and gave us the green light to destroy.

Sacredness of the planet hasn’t featured much in any religious life I’ve encountered. The solutions to our problems won’t be found in aping religion.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Wigs,

Old friend, old partner in crime

but Botton seems to be saying that things are worse.

I don't see it, I think it was Jeremyp who sent us down this road, I don't honestly see from Keiths OP where he is saying we are worse off, what I do see is him pointing out 21st century maladies and how we might fix them.

Gonnagle.

[wigginhall]

Dear Wigs,

Old friend, old partner in crime

I don't see it, I think it was Jeremyp who sent us down this road, I don't honestly see from Keiths OP where he is saying we are worse off, what I do see is him pointing out 21st century maladies and how we might fix them.

Gonnagle.

Well, I don't have a problem with discussing problems today.   But the title 'how the modern world makes us mentally ill', (which may not be Botton's own title), suggests to me that we are worse off.    Of course, the Victorians didn't have anxiety and depression. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There's also the implication that we are more anxious and depressed than previously.   Obviously, I haven't read the original, but I wonder if he backs this up in some way.   How would we know this?   I think in 1900 life expectancy was in the 40s and 50s, so is Botton saying that this was a better time?   How, where, who?

That's a fair point, How do we know? That question has also been asked of Pinker who was somehow able to pronounce statistically on violence in Ancient Africa.

[wigginhall]

Another issue is a missing link.    Where is this stuff taken from?

[Rhiannon]

3. Secularism: Secular societies cease to believe in anything that is bigger than or beyond themselves. Religions used to perform the useful service of keeping our petty ways and status battles in perspective. But now there is nothing to awe or relativise humans, whose triumphs and mishaps end up feeling like the be all and end all. A cure would involve regularly using sources of transcendence to generate a benign, relativising perspective on our personal sorrows: music, the stars at night, the vast spaces of the desert or the ocean would humble us all in consoling ways.

So atheists, secularists and those others with no religion don't do this anyway and need Botton to point out his prescription for a 'cure'?

What self righteous, self important wank.

[wigginhall]

Well, I've googled a paragraph from this, no sign of Botton.  Has anybody else found it?  I found a piece by somebody else, on 'the philosophy forum'.   So who is it by?

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2852/how-the-modern-world-makes-us-mentally-ill/p1

[wigginhall]

3. Secularism: Secular societies cease to believe in anything that is bigger than or beyond themselves. Religions used to perform the useful service of keeping our petty ways and status battles in perspective. But now there is nothing to awe or relativise humans, whose triumphs and mishaps end up feeling like the be all and end all. A cure would involve regularly using sources of transcendence to generate a benign, relativising perspective on our personal sorrows: music, the stars at night, the vast spaces of the desert or the ocean would humble us all in consoling ways.

So atheists, secularists and those others with no religion don't do this anyway and need Botton to point out his prescription for a 'cure'?

What self righteous, self important wank.

He's also using the term 'secular' to mean non-religious, not with its old meaning of separation of state and religion.   Secular society can have tons of religion in them.

[wigginhall]

I strongly doubt that this is by Botton.   So why put it in a thread as if it is?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

He's also using the term 'secular' to mean non-religious, not with its old meaning of separation of state and religion.   Secular society can have tons of religion in them.

Ours doesn't and isn't it the mission of the National Secular Society that we have tons less?

[Rhiannon]

Well, I've googled a paragraph from this, no sign of Botton.  Has anybody else found it?  I found a piece by somebody else, on 'the philosophy forum'.   So who is it by?

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2852/how-the-modern-world-makes-us-mentally-ill/p1

Interesting.

[Rhiannon]

I strongly doubt that this is by Botton.   So why put it in a thread as if it is?

Probably the Chinese whispers of social media.