How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill

[Rhiannon]

Uneducated Pleb though was very good

Agreed.

And yet Botton will be the one in the papers getting plaudits for his bilge. Still, Gerald's enjoying the ride for a bit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't see Uneducated Pleb as saying the same as Pinker's position at all but if you want to disagree with Uneducated Pleb then I suggest you post on that forum. about it.


ETA - Untangling your usual tortuous syntax, I think you are arguing that someone can't find good points in arguments that might be in disagreement - I disagree with that.

I have not voiced agreement or disagreement with Pleb but would hazard that his perspective is american where you can be anything you want to be and that colours one's optipessimism.

[Nearly Sane]

I have not voiced agreement or disagreement with Pleb but would hazard that his perspective is american where you can be anything you want to be and that colours one's optipessimism.

  See the ETA in the post that you ignored

[Walt Zingmatilder]

  See the ETA in the post that you ignored

ETA?

[Nearly Sane]

ETA?

Edited To Add - the second sentence in the post which you ignored

[wigginhall]

Just read Uneducated Pleb - seriously good.   I'm just baffled why anyone would write at length about such bilge.  Is de Botton considered to be a serious thinker?   I guess he was having an off day.  It reminds me of the old Reader's Digest.   

[Rhiannon]

Just read Uneducated Pleb - seriously good.   I'm just baffled why anyone would write at length about such bilge.  Is de Botton considered to be a serious thinker?   I guess he was having an off day.  It reminds me of the old Reader's Digest.

Yes, it’s interesting to see how thoroughly his ideas got demolished, yet he’s the one with the book deal.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Wigs,

Well I just listened to this,

https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success

And it ticked all the right boxes for me, I like the way this guy thinks.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, it’s interesting to see how thoroughly his ideas got demolished, yet he’s the one with the book deal.

Time for a call out. What do you think uneducated plebs point was?...........or De Botton's for that matter?
Same question to Wigginhall.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Wigs,

Well I just listened to this,

https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_gentler_philosophy_of_success

And it ticked all the right boxes for me, I like the way this guy thinks.

Gonnagle.

Me too.
I like Pleb too but think his is the voice, in debating De Botton, of the 21st century metropolitan computer gamer. Where life is grand as long as you have a console, a degree and a Pizza delivery service.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Me too.
I like Pleb too but think his is the voice, in debating De Botton, of the 21st century metropolitan computer gamer. Where life is grand as long as you have a console, a degree and a Pizza delivery service.

Quick get on stage before it wears off.

I am listening again to his Atheism 2.0, what can atheists learn from religion, get yer tin hat ready

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Me too.
I like Pleb too but think his is the voice, in debating De Botton, of the 21st century metropolitan computer gamer. Where life is grand as long as you have a console, a degree and a Pizza delivery service.

Why is any of that, if true, relevant?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Hi Mr G, watched that yesterday on your recommendation and did put up a question which got lost in the morass.

I noticed that De Botton included praise and thanksgiving in his list of useful stuff vis Thanking Shakespeare and Thanking Jane Austen as part of an atheist congregation.

There's a bit of a problem with that. Thanking the dead who you believe to be dead.  Isn't that the beginnings of ancestor worship?

Who or what should be praised and thanked collectively by atheists?

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

 
True! So true, the whole atheist thing, we don't know what God is but hell we still don't believe in it, makes my eyes water just thinking about the atheist mind.

Gonnagle.

I have to say Gonners, this post of yours and Vlad's post as well are both a demonstration of how right I was, neither of you are able to get your heads around secularism the pair of you haven't got a clue between you.

I'm as certain as I can be that even when I tell the pair of you that, believers in all all sorts of religions are also secularists, no doubt that'll fall on stony ground too.

Regards to the pair of you, ippy

[Nearly Sane]

Dear ippy,

 
True! So true, the whole atheist thing, we don't know what God is but hell we still don't believe in it, makes my eyes water just thinking about the atheist mind.

Gonnagle.

  At a loss as to why you find that strange, Gonzo. If I don't know what something is, how could I have a belief that it existed?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Ancestor worship?? Well we all do that in small ways, but I think the man was just using humour to make a point and I think the point was, well the point is ( I think ) if I point to the Bible for some kind of instruction the atheist will point out that I could have got the same instruction from Shakespeare or Austen but they don't relate as deeply to Shakespeare as I do to the Holy Bible.

Probably not making my point very clearly, in Church when they shout Amen they are not just shouting Amen "insert Amen here" they are shouting because they understand, they acknowledge, they feel it deeply within themselves.

And I don't know why I am waffling that De Botton character says it all better than I can.

Can I get an AMEN

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

I have to say Gonners, this post of yours and Vlad's post as well are both a demonstration of how right I was, neither of you are able to get your heads around secularism the pair of you haven't got a clue between you.

I have been away from this forum for a while but I am sure I have read atheists arguing about what secular means.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

At a loss as to why you find that strange, Gonzo. If I don't know what something is, how could I have a belief that it existed?

I find it strange that you have not explored all possibilities ( no one has ) but you all, all atheists stand by

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Sane,

I find it strange that you have not explored all possibilities ( no one has ) but you all, all atheists stand by
Gonnagle.

I doubt anyone can explore all possibilities - but you have to remember Gonzo, not having a belief in something isn't saying it doesn't exist.

[Stranger]

I find it strange that you have not explored all possibilities ( no one has ) but you all, all atheists stand by

disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

I'm with NS - I simply don't understand how anybody can believe in something when they can't say what it is. It's totally baffling to me.

How can you "explore possibilities" in this context - what is there to explore? What's the starting point?

The lack of belief in the existence of a god follows directly from the concept of the god in question being undefined. I have a lack of belief in sacvommawtuc too. Why? because I haven't got a clue what it is...

[Rhiannon]

I find this whole ‘belief in’ thing really weird. I can’t believe in something unless I experience it as real, even if I want to. So in ‘exploring possibilities’ I can only explore things I can experience. Theists who say ‘we don’t know what god is’ nevertheless tend to have some abstract ideas about what god is, or at least does, such as god loves, god creates, god saves.

As a borderline atheist I don’t experience a personal god, therefore I can’t believe in one.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Dear Vlad,

Ancestor worship?? Well we all do that in small ways, but I think the man was just using humour to make a point and I think the point was, well the point is ( I think ) if I point to the Bible for some kind of instruction the atheist will point out that I could have got the same instruction from Shakespeare or Austen but they don't relate as deeply to Shakespeare as I do to the Holy Bible.

Probably not making my point very clearly, in Church when they shout Amen they are not just shouting Amen "insert Amen here" they are shouting because they understand, they acknowledge, they feel it deeply within themselves.

And I don't know why I am waffling that De Botton character says it all better than I can.

Can I get an AMEN

Gonnagle.

Yes I broadly got that.
I think De Botton was referring to the guidance people get from holy books and the different ways in which this is mediated (monolithic message or living, personal word).

I think De Botton is quite keen on guidance hence the Book of Life which he is associated with and because he suggests that atheism can go of the rails if not disciplined and congregational. That's why his ideas are resisted on this forum. More or less the same argument mainstream churches make.

Atheists on this forum imho tend to be more like 19th century frontier protestants where there is a tradition of fundementalism, of feeling in danger from people not fully signed up, of unmediated self interpretation of doctrine, and a congregational experience in which thinking is secondary to emotional fervour.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I doubt anyone can explore all possibilities - but you have to remember Gonzo, not having a belief in something isn't saying it doesn't exist.

I think most atheists say, there is no God/gods full stop.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How can you "explore possibilities" in this context - what is there to explore? What's the starting point?

How about the word God? For the person that has no response to that I would imagine it is hard to give one to or get someone to have a response.

But I think those people are few and far between. More common are those who feel a strange but vague glow at the word or a bit of a vague feeling of discomfort. These are eminently explorable I would have said.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Atheists on this forum imho tend to be more like 19th century frontier protestants where there is a tradition of fundementalism, of feeling in danger from people not fully signed up, of unmediated self interpretation of doctrine, and a congregational experience in which thinking is secondary to emotional fervour.

Not just this forum ( I am not saying all ) I know you still remember the time Dawkins shut his forum down, much gnashing of teeth and foaming at the mouth

Gonnagle.