Author Topic: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill  (Read 54353 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #475 on: February 18, 2018, 05:35:00 PM »
I didn't ask you what the stakes were, I asked you if you'd dismissed it or not. Please try to keep up. The invisible pinkness is no more silly than most versions of Christianity.

No higher than your dismissal of the god that will punish you for your belief.

No. Why can't you even be bothered to look these things up?

That doesn't make sense - sorry, I mean it makes even less sense than your usual nonsense.

I have outlined a concept of god that is unfalsifiable and I'm asking you if you've dismissed it. The reason being that, according to what seems to pass as 'logic' in your mind, unless you can falsify it, you can't dismiss it.

Reflect on what? You're spouting self-contradictory drivel and ignoring or misunderstanding pretty mush everything that is being said to you. It's long since ceased resembling anything like a sensible discussion - it's just hilarious watching you tie yourself in knots...
Unfalsifiability is to do with science Stranger.  How then did you falsify my God? Look once we are outside of science there is logic and reason. What you are saying is that it is impossible to find God to be one thing or another. You need to justify that assertion logically and reasonably.

Walter

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #476 on: February 18, 2018, 05:51:43 PM »
And could you actually tell me what my argument is in a nutshell?
yes , it can be found in a discarded nutshell

ippy

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #477 on: February 18, 2018, 06:32:59 PM »
First of all Ippy is your use of the word normal. This might represent normal thinking for an anglo saxon new atheist but is hardly normal in consideration of the worlds population so what ever else it is it is not statistically normal and thinking it is is a bit suspect.

Secondly, It all goes south from there.

As usual Vlad off text again yes if you're referrilg to normal as it stands, on it's own, but as you know you've done your usual out of text, get out of jail free, reasoning.

I quite clearly refered to, normal, as follows: 'Vlad has made his point that he's impenatrable to basic explanations of how everyday normal reasoning is for most people', which used in this way it quite obviously differs considerably from using the word, 'normal', on it's own.

No doubt your next ploy is either no answer or create more of a muddle, instead of facing your failure to answer any post head on.

Regards ippy

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #478 on: February 18, 2018, 06:38:29 PM »
Unfalsifiability is to do with science Stranger.

Not necessarily.

How then did you falsify my God?

I pointed out a contradiction.

Look once we are outside of science there is logic and reason.

Yes.

What you are saying is that it is impossible to find God to be one thing or another.

One what thing or another? You've lapsed into gibberish again.

You need to justify that assertion logically and reasonably.

I have justified everything I've said to you - if you can't keep up, you need to ask sensible questions about what I've actually said.

Speaking of which - none of this is actually an answer to any of the points I raised in the post you were ostensibly replying to. How about you try again...?
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ippy

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #479 on: February 18, 2018, 07:21:06 PM »
Not necessarily.

I pointed out a contradiction.

Yes.

One what thing or another? You've lapsed into gibberish again.

I have justified everything I've said to you - if you can't keep up, you need to ask sensible questions about what I've actually said.

Speaking of which - none of this is actually an answer to any of the points I raised in the post you were ostensibly replying to. How about you try again...?

Stranger, Vlad doesn't do answers, all he does is either, just no answer, in some way change the subject and turns your exchange into an unsortable muddle, you're wasting your time on him.   

Regards ippy

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #480 on: February 18, 2018, 07:56:04 PM »
Stranger, Vlad doesn't do answers, all he does is either, just no answer, in some way change the subject and turns your exchange into an unsortable muddle, you're wasting your time on him.   

Yes, I know...
You're spouting self-contradictory drivel and ignoring or misunderstanding pretty mush everything that is being said to you. It's long since ceased resembling anything like a sensible discussion - it's just hilarious watching you tie yourself in knots...
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #481 on: February 18, 2018, 09:28:24 PM »


I pointed out a contradiction.


No............ key to your argument was a subjective view of what justice and fair-mindedness was, , the use of the term veiled threat which even if we accept it as a threat and not a danger alert is in no way veiled since you know what it is. If there was a contradiction in the God of the narrative you concocted it's your contradiction.
As for a God punishing people for believing in him for the wrong reasons can that truly be unjust in all measures of justice. I'm not sure it can

You were smart to eschew evil God though.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 09:53:14 PM by Private Frazer »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #482 on: February 18, 2018, 09:36:58 PM »
yes , it can be found in a discarded nutshell
It sounds as though you cant give a nutshell account of my argument so let me help you.
God is or isn't
If you are not an atheist who knows that God doesn't exist then you believe that he may exist.
If you then take no steps to find out if he exists then you are taking a gamble that he isn't worth finding or that he doesn't exist and that this is somehow a neutral gamble rather than the high stakes of missing God.

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #483 on: February 18, 2018, 10:37:00 PM »
No............ key to your argument was a subjective view of what justice and fair-mindedness was, , the use of the term veiled threat which even if we accept it as a threat and not a danger alert is in no way veiled since you know what it is. If there was a contradiction in the God of the narrative you concocted it's your contradiction.

Once again running away from most of my points - why are you so afraid to face logic (as if I didn't know)?

Look, you have a simple choice here. If you are going to claim that your god is 'good', 'just' and 'fair', then the only way those statements can have any meaning at all, is if you are referring to the way most humans regard those qualities (even though they are subjective conventions).

If that is the case, there is a contradiction with what is observed (no clear, message that is obviously from a god).

If you are going to claim that the words have some other meaning or that god is not 'good', 'just' and 'fair' (which is the logical equivalent), then we can deduce nothing about this god's actual values and cannot, for example, rely on it keeping its promises or being truthful - which makes your claim of the risks of not believing seem even more silly than they already are - because the risks of believing would be just as great.

No clear message from a god, either means that there is no god with an important message, or that if there is, it is not trustworthy.

God is or isn't
If you are not an atheist who knows that God doesn't exist then you believe that he may exist.
If you then take no steps to find out if he exists then you are taking a gamble that he isn't worth finding or that he doesn't exist and that this is somehow a neutral gamble rather than the high stakes of missing God.

Which is plane and simple idiocy, for the reasons already explained. Here we go again...

First of all there isn't one single god to consider - there are thousands of contradictory stories of very different gods, with very different 'risks' and different ways to avoid those 'risks'.

There has not been presented any sound arguments or evidence that would indicate that any of them are remotely likely to exist.

There is no methodology provided by which the claims can be objectively investigated. There are, in any case, far too many to spend much time on each in order to evaluate them, even if they all came with a sensible methodology (which none of them do).

The stories are either self-contradictory or unfalsifiable.

No sane person considers all baseless stories and assess the 'risks' associated with not believing them. For example, what steps have you taken to consider the possibility of alien mind control? Why aren't you wearing a tinfoil hat? You have also refused to consider the 'risks' associated with you having picked the wrong god.

If all that wasn't enough to dismiss the idea, we can then consider the fact that even those who claim to have taken the task of finding out if there is a god seriously, do not come to the same conclusion, they end up believing in different and contradictory gods or no gods at all. So even if we were daft enough to take your drivel seriously, it is quite obvious that there is no reliable way to a single "truth".

The whole thing is an obvious fool's errand.

So now you can quote this entire post and put another short piece of your inane drivel after it because you don't have the courage to really think about it...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 10:40:34 PM by Stranger »
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SusanDoris

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #484 on: February 19, 2018, 06:58:26 AM »
Well said, Stranger. Applause.

Ippy, I avoid the hassle of Vlad's posts by not reading them!!  :)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #485 on: February 19, 2018, 09:05:32 AM »
Once again running away from most of my points - why are you so afraid to face logic (as if I didn't know)?

Look, you have a simple choice here. If you are going to claim that your god is 'good', 'just' and 'fair', then the only way those statements can have any meaning at all, is if you are referring to the way most humans regard those qualities (even though they are subjective conventions).

If that is the case, there is a contradiction with what is observed (no clear, message that is obviously from a god).

If you are going to claim that the words have some other meaning or that god is not 'good', 'just' and 'fair' (which is the logical equivalent), then we can deduce nothing about this god's actual values and cannot, for example, rely on it keeping its promises or being truthful - which makes your claim of the risks of not believing seem even more silly than they already are - because the risks of believing would be just as great.

No clear message from a god, either means that there is no god with an important message, or that if there is, it is not trustworthy.

Which is plane and simple idiocy, for the reasons already explained. Here we go again...

First of all there isn't one single god to consider - there are thousands of contradictory stories of very different gods, with very different 'risks' and different ways to avoid those 'risks'.

There has not been presented any sound arguments or evidence that would indicate that any of them are remotely likely to exist.

There is no methodology provided by which the claims can be objectively investigated. There are, in any case, far too many to spend much time on each in order to evaluate them, even if they all came with a sensible methodology (which none of them do).

The stories are either self-contradictory or unfalsifiable.

No sane person considers all baseless stories and assess the 'risks' associated with not believing them. For example, what steps have you taken to consider the possibility of alien mind control? Why aren't you wearing a tinfoil hat? You have also refused to consider the 'risks' associated with you having picked the wrong god.

If all that wasn't enough to dismiss the idea, we can then consider the fact that even those who claim to have taken the task of finding out if there is a god seriously, do not come to the same conclusion, they end up believing in different and contradictory gods or no gods at all. So even if we were daft enough to take your drivel seriously, it is quite obvious that there is no reliable way to a single "truth".

The whole thing is an obvious fool's errand.

So now you can quote this entire post and put another short piece of your inane drivel after it because you don't have the courage to really think about it...
So let me get your takeaway points straight here
1: You cant be certain there isn't a God
2: God is a baseless story
3: If God is unjust he doesn't exist
4: A just god is crucial to the existence of any God.
5: A subjective view can falsify something.
6: There are only odds and not stakes
7: The person who says they do not actually know that God doesn't exist but lives as though he doesn't is not taking a bet or a faith position.
8: Because there are many points of view about God he cannot exist and therefore it is unreasonable to examine them or listen to your own ideas.
9: These points of view are all veiled and there is no truth in any of them because God has not revealed his message
10: Only those who hold the above 9 points are worthy of believing.

.......Vlad slaps and rubs hands together.

I'm afraid Stranger, you've rendered me a bit like the fart in the colander......which hole to motor through first?

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #486 on: February 19, 2018, 09:24:22 AM »
So let me get your takeaway points straight here

That'll be the day!

1: You cant be certain there isn't a God

In exactly the same was as I can't be certain that there isn't an orbiting teapot and you can't be certain that god isn't going to punish you for your faith.

However, I can be certain that there isn't most versions of the Christian god because they are riddled with contradictions.

2: God is a baseless story

Yes.

3: If God is unjust he doesn't exist

No. Read what I said.

4: A just god is crucial to the existence of any God.

No. Read what I said.

5: A subjective view can falsify something.

It is possible - if the view actually defines the meaning of important parts of the proposition.

6: There are only odds and not stakes

No. Read what I said

7: The person who says they do not actually know that God doesn't exist but lives as though he doesn't is not taking a bet or a faith position.

It is most definitely not a faith position.
It is the normal way that every rational person uses in order to decide what to take seriously.
It is only as much as a risk as your continued refusal to accept the possibility of the god that is going to judge and condemn you for you faith.

8: Because there are many points of view about God he cannot exist and therefore it is unreasonable to examine them or listen to your own ideas.

No. Read what I said.

9: These points of view are all veiled and there is no truth in any of them because God has not revealed his message

No. Read what I said.

10: Only those who hold the above 9 points are worthy of believing.

Eh?

.......Vlad slaps and rubs hands together.

I'm afraid Stranger, you've rendered me a bit like the fart in the colander......which hole to motor through first?

Vlad enters a fantasy world, all of his own.

I guess 1 out of 10 is a start...         ::) :)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #487 on: February 19, 2018, 09:33:58 AM »
That'll be the day!

In exactly the same was as I can't be certain that there isn't an orbiting teapot and you can't be certain that god isn't going to punish you for your faith.

However, I can be certain that there isn't most versions of the Christian god because they are riddled with contradictions.

Yes.

No. Read what I said.

No. Read what I said.

It is possible - if the view actually defines the meaning of important parts of the proposition.

No. Read what I said

It is most definitely not a faith position.
It is the normal way that every rational person uses in order to decide what to take seriously.
It is only as much as a risk as your continued refusal to accept the possibility of the god that is going to judge and condemn you for you faith.

No. Read what I said.

No. Read what I said.

Eh?

Vlad enters a fantasy world, all of his own.

I guess 1 out of 10 is a start...         ::) :)
So that's one Not knowing that there isn't a God but living as though there isn't one is not a faith (belief without evidence) position.
and a side order of declaring Christian contradictions from someone who has declared they aren't even worth examining.
Fortunately Susan Doris helps out here as the archetypal dawkinsian who wont even read the arguments. In her own admission.

Also Stranger you want to make this a hidden God thing thus making your argument effectively ''You needn't bother looking for God because he is hidden'' Not sure that is at all sensible.

However an overall examination of your position leads back toscientism as the smoking gun.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 09:51:06 AM by Private Frazer »

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #488 on: February 19, 2018, 09:53:37 AM »
Once again, Vlad runs away from facing the majority of the arguments.

So that's one Not knowing that there isn't a God but living as though there isn't one is not a faith (belief without evidence) position.

What are you finding so hard? More to the point, why won't you answer the questions I raise about the baseless stories that you are living your life as if weren't true?

Have some honesty and face up to the fact that you do this just as much as every other person does - except in the one respect of your favourite god-story.

If there is no reason to take an idea seriously, then it is both rational and necessary to sanity to dismiss it until and unless some new evidence or reasoning is presented that makes the idea credible.

Otherwise, you'd have to spend all your life investigating nonsense.

There is no need to take a faith position - if the proposition in question is unfalsifiable, one can remain open to further evidence.

This isn't rocket science - get a grip!

and a side order of declaring Christian contradictions from someone who has declared they aren't even worth examining.

I am familiar enough with Christianity (and with talking to Christians) to see the contradictions. I am continually both amazed and deeply saddened at the way faith totally blinds people to obvious, glaring contradictions at very heart of their beliefs.
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Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #489 on: February 19, 2018, 10:02:11 AM »
Vlad now resorts to dishonesty.

Also Stranger you want to make this a hidden God thing thus making your argument effectively ''You needn't bother looking for God because he is hidden'' Not sure that is at all sensible.

Another blatant misrepresentation.

However an overall examination of your position leads back toscientism as the smoking gun.

How so?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #490 on: February 19, 2018, 10:30:34 AM »
Once again, Vlad runs away from facing the majority of the arguments.

What are you finding so hard? More to the point, why won't you answer the questions I raise about the baseless stories that you are living your life as if weren't true?

Have some honesty and face up to the fact that you do this just as much as every other person does - except in the one respect of your favourite god-story.

If there is no reason to take an idea seriously, then it is both rational and necessary to sanity to dismiss it until and unless some new evidence or reasoning is presented that makes the idea credible.

Otherwise, you'd have to spend all your life investigating nonsense.

There is no need to take a faith position - if the proposition in question is unfalsifiable, one can remain open to further evidence.

This isn't rocket science - get a grip!

I am familiar enough with Christianity (and with talking to Christians) to see the contradictions. I am continually both amazed and deeply saddened at the way faith totally blinds people to obvious, glaring contradictions at very heart of their beliefs.
I am just noting your conflation with whether acting on belief there is no God rather than knowledge that there isn't isn't merely a belief but a reasonable thing to do because the stakes are so small and a gamble with Christian contradictions and just God with a bit of hidden God.

Is it the futility of the first that leads you to need unjust God or hidden God?

We are arguing until the cows come in on the highness of the stakes and if you are familiar with Christianity you will therefore be aware of what they are.

In terms of contradictions so what? What field of endevour doesn't have them or try to examine them? As far as I can see they all agree that God can be found and can be found in Christ. Again I would question how far various christian contradictions can be used as an excuse not to pursue God. It seems pretty certain that the christian enterprise is geared towards the finding of God. The bald assertion that all lives involve searching for God without hope of finding is wrong. As is the assumption that you think the search for the truth about this is a waste of time so everybody should. That is a question of preference.

Which brings us to the elements which have wound up in our argument.

Is God a baseless story. Not when we start thinking about cosmology or teleology or ontology. Even Dawkins acknowledges that teleology is a natural response to the universe he then goes to criticise Paley involving arguments from science.....and he had a good run until Bostrom, Musk De Grasse Tyson, you and Hillside revived it recently.

So no I don't think God is baseless neither do I think arguments for an absolute morality are baseless.

Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #491 on: February 19, 2018, 11:50:03 AM »
I am just noting your conflation with whether acting on belief there is no God rather than knowledge that there isn't...

I am not acting on the belief that there is no god, I am acting on the belief that there is no reason at all to think that there is a god.

...isn't merely a belief but a reasonable thing to do because the stakes are so small...

The stakes are irrelevant because whatever you think they may be, there is always some other baseless, unfalsifiable story that reverses them. This is something I've pointed out repeatedly and you continue to totally ignore it.

...and a gamble with Christian contradictions and just God with a bit of hidden God.

I keep telling you that I don't speak gibberish.

Is it the futility of the first that leads you to need unjust God or hidden God?

I haven't a clue what you think is futile and I don't need any sort of god.

We are arguing until the cows come in on the highness of the stakes and if you are familiar with Christianity you will therefore be aware of what they are.

They are only high if your god is unjust and unfair.

In terms of contradictions so what? What field of endevour doesn't have them or try to examine them?

I know of no other field in which the very basic notions (a just, loving god vers. everybody needing salvation via the sacrifice of Jesus) are so hopelessly contradictory.

The bald assertion that all lives involve searching for God without hope of finding is wrong.

I made no such assertion. What I said was that those who claim to have searched do not all reach the same conclusion - there isn't even a clear majority consensus. Hence, even if we imagine that there is a truth to be found, there is no reliable way of finding it.

Is God a baseless story. Not when we start thinking about cosmology or teleology or ontology.

Feel free to present an argument...

...De Grasse Tyson...

I am simply not going to get into the total idiocy of linking this to theism again. It's pathetic, stupid, and infantile.

So no I don't think God is baseless neither do I think arguments for an absolute morality are baseless.

As I said, feel free to provide a rational basis for either.

You could also stop running away from the majoroty of what is said to you.
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Gonnagle

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #492 on: February 19, 2018, 12:03:29 PM »
Dear Don Corleone,

Quote
Just when you think you are out they drag you back in again
>:(

Quote
I am familiar enough with Christianity (and with talking to Christians) to see the contradictions. I am continually both amazed and deeply saddened at the way faith totally blinds people to obvious, glaring contradictions at very heart of their beliefs.

So Stranger old fella, which glaring contradictions "at the very heart" amaze and sadden you.

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Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #493 on: February 19, 2018, 12:42:30 PM »
So Stranger old fella, which glaring contradictions "at the very heart" amaze and sadden you.

The idea of a god that is just, fair, and loving is a direct contradiction to the idea that humans all (except for one, who was god incarnate, so doesn't really count) stand condemned by said god for being 'sinners' and that we all need 'saving' by accepting the Jesus' sacrifice (dying for our sins and all that malarkey) by believing or 'having faith'.

The point being that if 100% of people fail a test, then it cannot possibly be said to be a fair and appropriate test for people. It cannot be a realistic choice for people to live up to god's standard (otherwise at least some people would do so). Condemning us for something we have no choice about is unjust and unfair.

In short, if god was going to make a people and then test them against some standard, it should have made better people or devised a more realistic test.

Offering a get-out to those who believe just compounds the injustice.

Some Christians further compound the injustice of it all by blaming "original sin" - some couple eating the wrong fruit long ago (or whatever that story is supposed to represent) that somehow (but undoubtedly due to a choice of this god) turned us all into 'sinners' - which is even more unjust and unfair.

Now, I'm happy to accept that not all Christians share this view - but there seem to be a fair proportion in my experience that subscribe to at least some parts of it. I assume our Vlad does from all his talk of the 'high stakes' of dismissing the idea of god in recent posts...

ETA: Oh and then there's the fact that even if all this is true - then it is a further injustice that there is no clear and unmistakeable message from god that warns us of it. All we have is one religion, divided into many sects, cults and denominations, amongst many others, which in turn are just one set of superstitions amongst many more. All without any objective indication that it is true...
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 12:49:07 PM by Stranger »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #494 on: February 19, 2018, 12:52:39 PM »


Now, I'm happy to accept that not all Christians share this view - but there seem to be a fair proportion in my experience that subscribe to at least some parts of it. I assume our Vlad does from all his talk of the 'high stakes' of dismissing the idea of god in recent posts...


Your thesis itself is a part view. I see no Christ in it in which case how is it a Christian contradiction? I see no personal responsibility either.

wigginhall

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #495 on: February 19, 2018, 01:01:35 PM »
The old line from Fulke Greville is often cited as a basic contradiction - created sick, and commanded to be well.   I'm not sure if it's a genuine contradiction, but it illustrates something about Christianity that makes me queasy.   I am guilty apparently, just like that, from the beginning, or as Stranger says, we have all failed.  Hence strange statements like Pascal's, God wants us to love him and hate ourselves.  Why?   
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Stranger

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #496 on: February 19, 2018, 01:02:16 PM »
I see no Christ in it...

...we all need 'saving' by accepting the Jesus' sacrifice (dying for our sins and all that malarkey) by believing or 'having faith'.

 ::)
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #498 on: February 19, 2018, 01:29:10 PM »
The idea of a god that is just, fair, and loving is a direct contradiction to the idea that humans all (except for one, who was god incarnate, so doesn't really count) stand condemned by said god for being 'sinners' and that we all need 'saving' by accepting the Jesus' sacrifice (dying for our sins and all that malarkey) by believing or 'having faith'.

The point being that if 100% of people fail a test, then it cannot possibly be said to be a fair and appropriate test for people. It cannot be a realistic choice for people to live up to god's standard (otherwise at least some people would do so). Condemning us for something we have no choice about is unjust and unfair.

In short, if god was going to make a people and then test them against some standard, it should have made better people or devised a more realistic test.

Offering a get-out to those who believe just compounds the injustice.

Some Christians further compound the injustice of it all by blaming "original sin" - some couple eating the wrong fruit long ago (or whatever that story is supposed to represent) that somehow (but undoubtedly due to a choice of this god) turned us all into 'sinners' - which is even more unjust and unfair.

Now, I'm happy to accept that not all Christians share this view - but there seem to be a fair proportion in my experience that subscribe to at least some parts of it. I assume our Vlad does from all his talk of the 'high stakes' of dismissing the idea of god in recent posts...

ETA: Oh and then there's the fact that even if all this is true - then it is a further injustice that there is no clear and unmistakeable message from god that warns us of it. All we have is one religion, divided into many sects, cults and denominations, amongst many others, which in turn are just one set of superstitions amongst many more. All without any objective indication that it is true...
You stand condemned for your own sin but there is salvation in Jesus Christ who takes our sin. Alas there are those with placards with
'I want my sin'' and I want sin'', 'I don't want God' and even 'I have no sin'....what, never? You've never put a foot wrong or have an unloving attitude toward God or man.

That is, I think, at the bottom of Stranger's objection. He ignores the roots of the problem, the sociological aspects of the issue and any sense of individual agency or responsibility( That old devil empiricism again ). It is easier to make God the bad guy in order to righteously avoid him.
It ignores Christ by eliminating any sense that at no point has God left mankind without a test that can be passed. Although it is not a test in the way Stranger thinks thus undermining his objection.
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However this is about Finding God. Something your never going to want to do if you wish to continue rejecting God.
Is God just and fair to let people who don't want him not to get him. To walk away from him? Not if they think it's juster and fairer for him to have them stuffed, mounted and gazing at him for eternity
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:33:34 PM by Private Frazer »

floo

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Re: How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill
« Reply #499 on: February 19, 2018, 01:45:11 PM »
God is more sinful than any human if the accounts in the Bible about its behaviour were true. Who/what is going to take away its sins?