How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill

[torridon]

As maybe as that is the defence that atheism is merely the lack of belief in Gods is the retreat position if their prime identity, When Atheism is challenged.

Why not some honesty?, Something like I am an atheist because the way I see the world is not altered by religious claims......oh aye and how do you see the world?

This information is seldom forthcoming and so we have to glean what it is from the responses they give.

Is the way you see the world altered by Zeus ? The way we see the world is not a pastiche of things that we don't believe in, but rather the things that do seem plausible and useful to us.  The vast majority of beliefs that humans have come up with are probably wrong or irrelevant; they might be curiosities at best.

[Stranger]

As maybe as that is the defence that atheism is merely the lack of belief in Gods is the retreat position if their prime identity, When Atheism is challenged.

Why not some honesty?, Something like I am an atheist because the way I see the world is not altered by religious claims......oh aye and how do you see the world?

This information is seldom forthcoming and so we have to glean what it is from the responses they give.

I think it's much more that you don't seem to grasp the notion that atheism isn't a 'way of seeing the world'. I reject religious claims simply because I have never seen a good reason to take any of them seriously - as I've said many times.

What's hard about that?

Your version of the fall in Genesis lacked and still does some important points and ends up a misinformed distortion avoiding the key point IMHO. In your account hard determinism and the myth of human responsibility is the conclusion. .

But you haven't actually posted anything that changes my assessment - every time you post an account of it just confirms what I think and why I think it unjust and unfair.

Where's this missing information that makes all the difference?

Without the fall and God subsequently maintaining links with humanity there would be no Old Testament.

I know (that this is your belief), and it would still be unjust and unfair...

[Stranger]

Good luck with that old son, sometimes we see a small glimpse but then the petticoat is quickly covered and it is rapidly back to Flying Spaghetti Monsters and orbiting teapots 

Gonners - honesty I have no idea what you want to know. I'm totally mystified as to why "I see no reason to take the idea of god(s) seriously" isn't all that you need to know.

Please explain.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

See! Once again you turn it on its head, maybe that's a cue for a new thread, "give me ten good reasons why you are a atheist" but I fear the futility of that thread, stock one sentence answers

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is the way you see the world altered by Zeus ? The way we see the world is not a pastiche of things that we don't believe in, but rather the things that do seem plausible and useful to us.  The vast majority of beliefs that humans have come up with are probably wrong or irrelevant; they might be curiosities at best.

Still no closer as to what it is you belief just a gripe about what others believe.

[Stranger]

Dear Stranger,

See! Once again you turn it on its head, maybe that's a cue for a new thread, "give me ten good reasons why you are a atheist" but I fear the futility of that thread, stock one sentence answers

Gonnagle.

I genuinely don't understand what more you want to know. I promise I will answer any question you want to ask as honestly and completely as a can.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think it's much more that you don't seem to grasp the notion that atheism isn't a 'way of seeing the world'. I reject religious claims simply because I have never seen a good reason to take any of them seriously - as I've said many times.

What's hard about that?

But you haven't actually posted anything that changes my assessment - every time you post an account of it just confirms what I think and why I think it unjust and unfair.

Where's this missing information that makes all the difference?

I know (that this is your belief), and it would still be unjust and unfair...

You can believe what you will and disagree with what you will. But if you are commentating on a Christian document or commenting on a Christian viewpoint you need at least to get it straight what is actually being said.

You were corrected at thes points
1. You asked why God did not make better humans who could have passed some test. Humans Started in perfect relationships with God and chose to spoil it.
2. God did not wickedly condemn all to death but through Christ keeps the way open
3. Your conflation of original sin and personal sin.

Humans were the better humans because they enjoyed a perfect relationship with God but threw that away.
Your conception of better humans presumably are people that have no choice but to love God......is that love.
You have ignored that Man walks away from God.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I genuinely don't understand what more you want to know. I promise I will answer any question you want to ask as honestly and completely as a can.

I think we want you to make good on this response.

Quote from: Private Frazer on Today at 08:14:53 AM
''If atheism is merely the lack of faith in Gods then, as small pebbles fulfil that criteria, an atheist of that ilk has no more to say than a stone.''

You seem to be confusing the definition of atheism with people who are atheists. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods but people who lack that belief often have other beliefs and attitudes (amazingly enough).

Go on then amaze us.

[Stranger]

Once again you turn it on its head...

Is there a basic disconnect here? I regard it as fundamental (in everything, not only gods) that I need reasons in order to believe something.

If somebody presents anything - a new scientific hypothesis, a claim about some part of the world I I never visited, anything whatsoever that is a matter of fact (rather than a subjective opinion) then I need a reason to accept it. In some cases, the fact that I trust the person providing the information is enough but in other cases (say for a scientific hypothesis), I'd want to know what the evidence was or what reasoning had led to the conclusion.

If there are no such reasons, I see no reason to accept anything until and unless they are forthcoming. This is not an attitude unique to my approach to god claims.

[Stranger]

You were corrected at thes points
1. You asked why God did not make better humans who could have passed some test. Humans Started in perfect relationships with God and chose to spoil it.
2. God did not wickedly condemn all to death but through Christ keeps the way open
3. Your conflation of original sin and personal sin.

Humans were the better humans because they enjoyed a perfect relationship with God but threw that away.
Your conception of better humans presumably are people that have no choice but to love God......is that love.
You have ignored that Man walks away from God.

I've addressed all these points (several times) and they still amount to unfair and unjust treatment of humanity by god. Do you need me to explain yet again...?

[Stranger]

I think we want you to make good on this response.

Ask away.

Go on then amaze us.

With what? I gave an example immediately after you cut my quote. What else do you want to know?

[ekim]

Is there a basic disconnect here? I regard it as fundamental (in everything, not only gods) that I need reasons in order to believe something.

For some people the 'reason' is their belief satisfies a desire or need.

[Walter]

Dear Stranger,

See! Once again you turn it on its head, maybe that's a cue for a new thread, "give me ten good reasons why you are a atheist" but I fear the futility of that thread, stock one sentence answers

Gonnagle.

Look, it's quite simple . You make the claim , it's up to you to provide the evidence for it . NOT ME.

But we've been here before , probably every day and people like you have NEVER provided any.
So if any one is mentally ill it's those who believe without evidence .

[torridon]

For some people the 'reason' is their belief satisfies a desire or need.

A bit like a child who invents an imaginary friend to satisfy some need ? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is there a basic disconnect here? I regard it as fundamental (in everything, not only gods) that I need reasons in order to believe something.

If somebody presents anything - a new scientific hypothesis, a claim about some part of the world I I never visited, anything whatsoever that is a matter of fact (rather than a subjective opinion) then I need a reason to accept it. In some cases, the fact that I trust the person providing the information is enough but in other cases (say for a scientific hypothesis), I'd want to know what the evidence was or what reasoning had led to the conclusion.

If there are no such reasons, I see no reason to accept anything until and unless they are forthcoming. This is not an attitude unique to my approach to god claims.

Nothing here that a theist couldn't have said.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Stranger,

Well I asked a long time ago, but here goes again, I am told atheism is just blah blah blah, but if I go on to the interweb, I can usually find some atheist foaming at the mouth, telling us about the evils of religion, the question is this, in your daily life, your thoughts and the way you view the world does your atheism affect this.

Here is an example, I am all for a day of rest for the whole world, a day when we shut down, a day for quiet contemplation, a day when we stick two fingers up at consumerism and yes I know it is pie in the sky stuff, I know we could never fully achieve this but a move towards this sort of thing would be nice, good for the planet, but when this question is raised on this forum the atheists are all over it, they talk of rights and going  shopping 24/7 is a great thing.

Now I don't want to debate the above but is it a small sample of how your atheism affects your daily life?

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

For some people the 'reason' is their belief satisfies a desire or need.

Something wrong with desire or need?
Seems like you have a desire and need to avoid desire and need.

[wigginhall]

Is the way you see the world altered by Zeus ? The way we see the world is not a pastiche of things that we don't believe in, but rather the things that do seem plausible and useful to us.  The vast majority of beliefs that humans have come up with are probably wrong or irrelevant; they might be curiosities at best.

That's a nice phrase - a pastiche of things we don't believe in.    Of course, there are an infinite number of them.

I also think that there isn't a 'way I see the world'.   I mean,  that there isn't something consistent and unified about my views.   I don't have a 'world view'.   Of course, maybe other people do, I'm not sure.   Things loom into my consciousness and loom out again, and some things seem beautiful and ugly and useful and pointless.   I can make sense of it in a limited way - for example, the buses run about every 5 minutes into Hammersmith - but beyond that - it's OK not to make sense of it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Look, it's quite simple . You make the claim , it's up to you to provide the evidence for it . NOT ME.

I guess if there is an argument in philosophy which led me on the path to God it is the moral argument funnily enough in a god free world evolved altruism and moral irrealism are not good enough answers to current human behaviour.
Firstly if Darwinian evolved altruism did eventually fully equate to a moral philosophy it would constitute an objective morality and still not be able to exclude God or eliminate actual wrongdoing.

With you Walter, we are back to gleaning your world view. I guess it's not being able to see, feel, hear, touch, taste or smell God. 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Waltz sing ma tilda,

L

ook, it's quite simple . You make the claim , it's up to you to provide the evidence for it . NOT ME.

But we've been here before , probably every day and people like you have NEVER provided any.
So if any one is mentally ill it's those who believe without evidence .

Grrrr! Grrrr! Mr Angry Atheist, aye I am mentally ill! I would blame it on atheists but the Tories are a much better reason

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

That's a nice phrase - a pastiche of things we don't believe in.    Of course, there are an infinite number of them.

I also think that there isn't a 'way I see the world'.   I mean,  that there isn't something consistent and unified about my views.   I don't have a 'world view'.   Of course, maybe other people do, I'm not sure.   Things loom into my consciousness and loom out again, and some things seem beautiful and ugly and useful and pointless.   I can make sense of it in a limited way - for example, the buses run about every 5 minutes into Hammersmith - but beyond that - it's OK not to make sense of it.

Ah yes, dear wigginhall, having a world view seems like it must be exhausting. You have to be re-evaluating everything all the time just in case there needs to be a change. I rather wish I could get that bus to Hammersmith and we could have a quiet pint in a pub and let the oasis of calm deal with all the looming things.

[Stranger]

Well I asked a long time ago, but here goes again, I am told atheism is just blah blah blah, but if I go on to the interweb, I can usually find some atheist foaming at the mouth, telling us about the evils of religion...

You will indeed. The point being that being an atheist is a separate (lack of) belief to thinking religion is evil. I guess you'd have to be an atheist to think that religion is evil but many atheists (in my experience) simply don't care very much about religion - but they're not the ones who post a lot on the internet about the subject (for the obvious reason that they don't care).

So atheism is lacking belief in any gods and some people who lack that belief also think religion is evil.

...the question is this, in your daily life, your thoughts and the way you view the world does your atheism affect this.

I don't think so, as such. For myself I take the view that people should base beliefs (about matters of fact) on evidence and reasoning, so whenever people don't do that, then I tend to react against it. That's whether it's climate change denial, anti-vax, horoscopes, paranormal, ghosts, alien abductions, fake moon landings, religions, or whatever else.

ETA: So it's more the reason for my atheism that affects my daily life.

Here is an example, I am all for a day of rest for the whole world, a day when we shut down, a day for quiet contemplation, a day when we stick two fingers up at consumerism and yes I know it is pie in the sky stuff, I know we could never fully achieve this but a move towards this sort of thing would be nice, good for the planet, but when this question is raised on this forum the atheists are all over it, they talk of rights and going  shopping 24/7 is a great thing.

This is actually an interesting question. If you (or anybody else) raised it in those terms, I be questioning the practicality of everybody doing it on the same day in the modern world, despite its possible advantages.

My reaction would be different if somebody's approach was along the lines of it being some god's commandment and everybody who does any work on god's day was evil and should be punished.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I've addressed all these points (several times) and they still amount to unfair and unjust treatment of humanity by god. Do you need me to explain yet again...?

A ''better human'' and allowing people who are by their own volition retreating from God to enjoy God fully are at best not addressing the points at all and at worse complete contradiction.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Stranger,

Well I asked a long time ago, but here goes again, I am told atheism is just blah blah blah, but if I go on to the interweb, I can usually find some atheist foaming at the mouth, telling us about the evils of religion, the question is this, in your daily life, your thoughts and the way you view the world does your atheism affect this.

Here is an example, I am all for a day of rest for the whole world, a day when we shut down, a day for quiet contemplation, a day when we stick two fingers up at consumerism and yes I know it is pie in the sky stuff, I know we could never fully achieve this but a move towards this sort of thing would be nice, good for the planet, but when this question is raised on this forum the atheists are all over it, they talk of rights and going  shopping 24/7 is a great thing.

Now I don't want to debate the above but is it a small sample of how your atheism affects your daily life?

Gonnagle.

It's not a small sample of how it affects mine. Indeed. my daily life appears t me unaffected by my atheism. To  adapt Shakespeare


'Hath not an atheist eyes? Hath not an atheist hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a theist is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?'


Since theists are not consistent, after all when you rail against the Tories, May is a theist. Other religions including the one that Shakes was writing about have a different day of rest, are they to be told they are wrong?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Ah yes, dear wigginhall, having a world view seems like it must be exhausting. You have to be re-evaluating everything all the time just in case there needs to be a change. I rather wish I could get that bus to Hammersmith and we could have a quiet pint in a pub and let the oasis of calm deal with all the looming things.

Mr Sane

If you yearn for a world that comprises of a paper, a pie and a pint then in one sense that is your world view but given that idea might make you angry lets not call it that.

My approach is if you don't have a world view what warrant do you for taking part in a debate about it or even criticising someone elses?

This post was brought to you courtesy of The Gonnagleisation of posts scheme......
Getting straight there in a pithy sentence.