How The Modern World Makes Us Mentally Ill

[Stranger]

Thanks for that, it has been a strange day of walk down memory lane for me today, just for once I had  hoped for something new but no, same old same old.

Have you read the thread about putting The God Delusion on stage, same old same old.

Yes - same old, same old - I'd hoped for something new too, so I guess we're both disappointed.

It's weird - talking to you about god, theism, and atheism is rather like entering the twilight zone - before our very eyes an apparently normal guy, with sound ideas on many subjects, gets transported into this bizarre parallel reality in which it's possible to believe in something without knowing what it is and in which people are supposed to have some deep reason to not believe in this whatever-the-fuck-it-is aside from the fact that we don't have a definition, or any reason to actually take the 'idea' seriously from what is actually said about it.

Bizarre and very depressing.   

[ippy]

Dear Stranger,

Thanks for that, it has been a strange day of walk down memory lane for me today, just for once I had  hoped for something new but no, same old same old.

Have you read the thread about putting The God Delusion on stage, same old same old.

Gonnagle.

I have very similar same old same old good feelings for my fellow person as you, but without having to have a Mr Magic Man in the sky in my imagination as some sort of judgement/comforter man, but that kind of thought does incline to make my good feeling for my fellow person, I think, a tad more ethical than any of my religious believing fellow persons.

I wish to do well by my fellow person on my own part I have no imaginary person I think is guiding me with what I should be doing in this area, I'm not looking for some kind or another of a heavenly kind of point scoring system and nor do I expect to be a bad person for all of my life and say sorry at the last possible moment in the hope of receiving the heavenly equivalent of an everlasting bag of sweeties.

Sorry Gonners you can do the good old boy stuff as much as you like there's not enough substance in it and virtually nothing to back this religious stuff up that could be considered a reasonable amount of evidence justifying it, but then of course as you tell me, it's the same old same old.

Who's doing the same old, same old.

Regards ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I have very similar same old same old good feelings for my fellow person as you, but without having to have a Mr Magic Man in the sky in my imagination as some sort of judgement/comforter man, but that kind of thought does incline to make my good feeling for my fellow person, I think, a tad more ethical than any of my religious believing fellow persons.

I wish to do well by my fellow person on my own part I have no imaginary person I think is guiding me with what I should be doing in this area, I'm not looking for some kind or another of a heavenly kind of point scoring system and nor do I expect to be a bad person for all of my life and say sorry at the last possible moment in the hope of receiving the heavenly equivalent of an everlasting bag of sweeties.

Sorry Gonners you can do the good old boy stuff as much as you like there's not enough substance in it and virtually nothing to back this religious stuff up that could be considered a reasonable amount of evidence justifying it, but then of course as you tell me, it's the same old same old.

Who's doing the same old, same old.

Regards ippy

A culturally conditioned post just look at the 21st century secular language
'Religious stuff
heavenly point scoring
Mr magic man in the sky.

[Walter]

Well, we've all had such a  lovely day together and there's just enough time for me and Richard Dawkins to say; 

Goodnight and God Bless x

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well, we've all had such a  lovely day together and there's just enough time for me and Richard Dawkins to say; 

Goodnight and God Bless x

Goodnight Walter, Goodnight Richard, Goodnight John Boy.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Stranger,

Thanks for that, it has been a strange day of walk down memory lane for me today, just for once I had  hoped for something new but no, same old same old.

Have you read the thread about putting The God Delusion on stage, same old same old.

Gonnagle.

Sometimes I read posts and I laugh, sometimes I think 'not again, sometimes 'wtf', this one is incredibly depressing. On a day when you got a couple of golden posts from enki, never mind any other replies, and you just dismiss it as nothing new, Gonzo. Really?

And worse it's all been done in a way that is based on thinking of atheists as some 'other' thing rather than just treat posters on here as people not labels. Gonzo, you and I have broken bread together and sunk pints and yet off you go and run with the tired schtick that atheists are different. A schtick that permeates this board with the ideas that the theists are deluded, with the ideas that Brexiteers are racist, Remoaners are anti democratic, Spurs fans are mad dreamers. I know that's because we are tribal and I have spent long times on here calling it out but coming from you, it is so depressing.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm sorry but I'm afraid New Atheism instructed atheists to ridicule theism.
Imho Gonnagles counterjibes are relatively benign and even affectionate.

[Nearly Sane]

I'm sorry but I'm afraid New Atheism instructed atheists to ridicule theism.
Imho Gonnagles counterjibes are relatively benign and even affectionate.

This reads like 'he started it, sir' As covered in the post I think it's wrong to indulge in lazy generalities - pointing out that other people do it isn't a justification

[Walter]

Sometimes I read posts and I laugh, sometimes I think 'not again, sometimes 'wtf', this one is incredibly depressing. On a day when you got a couple of golden posts from enki, never mind any other replies, and you just dismiss it as nothing new, Gonzo. Really?

And worse it's all been done in a way that is based on thinking of atheists as some 'other' thing rather than just treat posters on here as people not labels. Gonzo, you and I have broken bread together and sunk pints and yet off you go and run with the tired schtick that atheists are different. A schtick that permeates this board with the ideas that the theists are deluded, with the ideas that Brexiteers are racist, Remoaners are anti democratic, Spurs fans are mad dreamers. I know that's because we are tribal and I have spent long times on here calling it out but coming from you, it is so depressing.

the arrogance of a 'holier than thou 'delusion is a ugly thing to observe . It leads some people to tell others to go and play with the busses and disguising it with humour does not mask it's vitriol.

[Nearly Sane]

the arrogance of a 'holier than thou 'delusion is a ugly thing to observe . It leads some people to tell others to go and play with the busses and disguising it with humour does not mask it's vitriol.

And a further depressing post from you, Walter, continuing along the line of lazy generalisation, with an added faux innocence. If you try to provoke someone, it might not be that surprising if they react.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

This reads like 'he started it, sir' As covered in the post I think it's wrong to indulge in lazy generalities - pointing out that other people do it isn't a justification

Gonnagle has only transgressed if gentle jibing and affectionate pricking of pomposity constitutes transgression imho.

Ridicule is the lingua Franca of this forum.

Gonnagle just picked up on something Stranger said about atheists having beliefs too. Like him I get frustrated that these are not properly articulated for full scrutiny.
I think that ranges from habitual adoption of the interrogator role rendering some unable to articulate beliefs to out and out hiding of beliefs because of love of the inquisitorial position.
Stranger did write what he thought his beliefs amounted to and I pointed out a theist could have written exactly the same.
There are and should be forums in which we share our common humanity but I doubt this is it or ever could be.

[Nearly Sane]

Gonnagle has only transgressed if gentle jibing and affectionate pricking of pomposity constitutes transgression imho.

Ridicule is the lingua Franca of this forum.

Gonnagle just picked up on something Stranger said about atheists having beliefs too. Like him I get frustrated that these are not properly articulated for full scrutiny.
I think that ranges from habitual adoption of the interrogator role rendering some unable to articulate beliefs to out and out hiding of beliefs because of love of the inquisitorial position.
Stranger did write what he thought his beliefs amounted to and I pointed out a theist could have written exactly the same.
There are and should be forums in which we share our common humanity but I doubt this is it or ever could be.

That's just saying 'he started it, sir' in some more words and continuing with the generalising.

[Walter]

And a further depressing post from you, Walter, continuing along the line of lazy generalisation, with an added faux innocence. If you try to provoke someone, it might not be that surprising if they react.

you are right NS, he has no idea I was trapped under a bus for three hours after a head on collision in motorbike accident some years ago

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's just saying 'he started it, sir' in some more words and continuing with the generalising.

Do you need to be this dogmatic and dismissive of my posts?

[Stranger]

Gonnagle just picked up on something Stranger said about atheists having beliefs too. Like him I get frustrated that these are not properly articulated for full scrutiny.

One of the problems here is that Gonners seems to want to understand atheism and you seem to share the idea that there is an atheist set of beliefs, which there simply isn't.

Atheists (the people) obviously have beliefs but atheism is only a lack of belief in gods. People arrive at atheism via different thought processes. I can talk about my beliefs as much as you want - but I can't tell you anything about atheism other than it is not having any belief in gods.

Stranger did write what he thought his beliefs amounted to and I pointed out a theist could have written exactly the same.

But they never seem able to explain their theism in those terms - hence what you call the "adoption of the interrogator role".

[Walt Zingmatilder]

One of the problems here is that Gonners seems to want to understand atheism and you seem to share the idea that there is an atheist set of beliefs, which there simply isn't.

Atheists (the people) obviously have beliefs but atheism is only a lack of belief in gods. People arrive at atheism via different thought processes. I can talk about my beliefs as much as you want - but I can't tell you anything about atheism other than it is not having any belief in gods.

But they never seem able to explain their theism in those terms - hence what you call the "adoption of the interrogator role".

Apparently Stranger you state you have beliefs.I believe those beliefs contribute to your atheism.
However you are more concerned imho with focussing on theism.

We must question why then you hide your core beliefs

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's just saying 'he started it, sir' in some more words and continuing with the generalising.

Theists have to be robust because of the posseing which I perceive on this forum.

[Nearly Sane]

Theists have to be robust because of the posseing which I perceive on this forum.

  Can you write anything on this that isn't just another version of 'he started it, sir'?

[Walter]

Theists have to be robust because of the posseing which I perceive on this forum.

I can see it must be difficult and perhaps hurtful at times for you but you don't do yourself any favours .

when you are constantly being challenged do you not think to yourself ''hmmm, perhaps i'm wrong about my beliefs' and do a bit of re-thinking of your position?

You cannot deny the logic of the arguments against you and just to clarify , i have a lack of belief in the existance of any god and that is NOT a belief system

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I can see it must be difficult and perhaps hurtful at times for you but you don't do yourself any favours .

when you are constantly being challenged do you not think to yourself ''hmmm, perhaps i'm wrong about my beliefs' and do a bit of re-thinking of your position?

You cannot deny the logic of the arguments against you and just to clarify , i have a lack of belief in the existance of any god and that is NOT a belief system

No that would constitute belief by posse.

I'm afraid all you are saying is be an atheist because we are. That seems to me week atheism.

If atheism is a lack of belief in God then I cannot be an atheist.

In any case what I find I'm chiefly presented with here though is Really we are agnostics can you not at least find yourself agreeing that we can never know.

To which my answer is no.

So really all you are saying is I should rethink my position because I should rethink my position.

[Walter]

[quote If atheism is a lack of belief in God then I cannot be an atheist.

even in your reply you miss out an important word and that is EXISTANCE !!


as in   'if atheism is a lack of belief in the EXISTANCE of god then i cannot be an atheist .

[Nearly Sane]

Do you need to be this dogmatic and dismissive of my posts?

  If all you do is reformulate your statement to use the playground excuse of he started it, then it's difficult to see what else can be achieved.

[Nearly Sane]

even in your reply you miss out an important word and that is EXISTANCE !!


as in   'if atheism is a lack of belief in the EXISTANCE of god then i cannot be an atheist .

Surely the 'belief in God' form that Vlad used includes existence?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

even in your reply you miss out an important word and that is EXISTANCE !!


as in   'if atheism is a lack of belief in the EXISTANCE of god then i cannot be an atheist .

Aka Ontology Walter. You see you'll be working from the philosophical materialism songsheet. For me that has huge issues.
1. It is based on a circular argument
2. There are issues concerning why it's here and how it got here aka Cosmology
3. It gives us nothing on whether there is or isn't any purpose generally aka Teleology
4. It doesn't give us any clues about what we ought to do aka morality.

Now you could take your cue from those around you which is what you are suggesting but that is rather like the blind leading the blind.

The critical moment for me was when I read the words of a person but realising these were coming from something else and not the woolly sphere of unknowing. That is when I became a theist.

[torridon]

Apparently Stranger you state you have beliefs.I believe those beliefs contribute to your atheism.
However you are more concerned imho with focussing on theism.

We must question why then you hide your core beliefs

So my penchant for hillwalking and skiing contribute to my pastime of not cross stitching.