Gender neutrality in religion.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Theses

1. There is no tradition of gender neutrality in religion
2. Monotheists and pantheists get far closer to it than polytheism or paganism.

[Sriram]

Well...speaking for Hinduism I can say that we have a goddess for every God that we have. All our gods are married. Brahma and Saraswati, Vishnu and Lakshmi, Shiva and Parvati. 

All these goddesses have functions similar to the gods.  Shiva also has a form as Ardhanarieswara....half male and half female.

No man can perform religious functions without his wife by his side. The wife has equal part in all rituals. Some of the leading philosophers in the Upanishads are women.

In fact the female element is seen the energy that activates the universe. Adhi Parashakti (the primordial highest energy) is always depicted as female and is  said to activate the three Gods of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva...and their wives. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Hinduism

 

[Anchorman]

Speaking for the Church of Scotland, there is nothing in the church closed to women. They ae elders, ministers, they have moderate presbytery (though whay anyone would want to beats me), they have been elected moderator of the General Assembly.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Speaking for the Church of Scotland, there is nothing in the church closed to women. They ae elders, ministers, they have moderate presbytery (though whay anyone would want to beats me), they have been elected moderator of the General Assembly.

I might be wrong but I would say gender neutrality is a different thing from gender equality.
I might add a third thesis in that gender terms are used to avoid the impersonal, unconscious and unintelligent "it".

But I would say that gender is more a feature of goddess religions where the function of divine generation is unavoidably feminine.

[Sriram]

I might be wrong but I would say gender neutrality is a different thing from gender equality.
I might add a third thesis in that gender terms are used to avoid the impersonal, unconscious and unintelligent "it".

But I would say that gender is more a feature of goddess religions where the function of divine generation is unavoidably feminine.

You're right. I was taking abut gender equality too. Sorry!

As regards gender neutrality, the concept of Brahman could be considered as gender neutral because it is a state of Consciousness beyond all opposites. Everything is Brahman. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You're right. I was taking abut gender equality too. Sorry!

As regards gender neutrality, the concept of Brahman could be considered as gender neutral because it is a state of Consciousness beyond all opposites. Everything is Brahman.

Yes I see that and hopefully reflected that in the second thesis.
What you say of course is gender neutral.
There is a biblical statement that there is neither male nor female in Christ. Gender I'm not sure that neo pagan or goddess religions point to the ultimate dissolution of gender given the perceived key role in fertility and generation.

[Nearly Sane]

Theses

1. There is no tradition of gender neutrality in religion
2. Monotheists and pantheists get far closer to it than polytheism or paganism.

Your 'theses' are contradictory

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Your 'theses' are contradictory

Not if gender neutrality is the deliberate elimination of any consideration of gender vis recent efforts in promoting gender neutral language and the promotion of marriage as gender neutral.

I will concede in the case of Brahman and the idea that there is neither male or female in Christ although there is a case to be made for these being examples of gender equality rather than gender neutrality.

[Nearly Sane]

Not if gender neutrality is the deliberate elimination of any consideration of gender vis recent efforts in promoting gender neutral language and the promotion of marriage as gender neutral.

I will concede in the case of Brahman and the idea that there is neither male or female in Christ although there is a case to be made for these being examples of gender equality rather than gender neutrality.

None of the above deals with your two theses being contradictory.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

None of the above deals with your two theses being contradictory.

I don't know what you think my response should be but I wonder whether I can be the only one looking to you to move beyond assertion.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't know what you think my response should be but I wonder whether I can be the only one looking to you to move beyond assertion.

something that addresses the fact that your 'theses' are contradictory.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

something that addresses the fact that your 'theses' are contradictory.

Please don't wait for a response.

[Nearly Sane]

Please don't wait for a response.

Presumably because you don't actually have a coherent response to putting forward two contradictory 'theses'?

[Anchorman]

I might be wrong but I would say gender neutrality is a different thing from gender equality.
I might add a third thesis in that gender terms are used to avoid the impersonal, unconscious and unintelligent "it".

But I would say that gender is more a feature of goddess religions where the function of divine generation is unavoidably feminine.

 


I don't see a problem here.
If the Kirk has no gender issues, and the LORD is ouside gender issues, then there ARE no gender issues.

[SteveH]

Your 'theses' are contradictory

I see no contradiction. Whether they are true is another matter.

[Nearly Sane]

I see no contradiction. Whether they are true is another matter.

If there is no tradition then some area can't get tradition better better

[Rhiannon]

If there is no tradition then some area can't get tradition better better

And that’s without even considering that’s paganism can be pantheistic, atheistic or monotheistic, or that polytheists can believe that the deities are expressions of one overall ‘great deity’, or that they can also be panentheists and pantheists.

[SteveH]

If there is no tradition then some area can't get tradition better better

There is no tradition of gender neutrality, but some get closer to it than others. Where's the contradiction in that?

[Rhiannon]

The Greeks had a deity called Hermaphroditos.

Take your time, Vlad.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There is no tradition of gender neutrality, but some get closer to it than others. Where's the contradiction in that?

yes by gender neutrality I mean the modern invention of deliberately eliminating reference to gender and suggestion that it is at all relevant in any aspect whatsoever.

[Rhiannon]

yes by gender neutrality I mean the modern invention of deliberately eliminating reference to gender and suggestion that it is at all relevant in any aspect whatsoever.

So you don't see the issue with looking for a 'modern invention' in ancient traditions with no history of that modern invention and then declaring that some 'get closer' than others?

[SteveH]

So you don't see the issue with looking for a 'modern invention' in ancient traditions with no history of that modern invention and then declaring that some 'get closer' than others?

You and NS are trying hard to find illogicality in PF's post, but to no avail. PS writes a fair amount of bollocks, but this isn't.

[Rhiannon]

You and NS are trying hard to find illogicality in PF's post, but to no avail. PS writes a fair amount of bollocks, but this isn't.

If he started out by saying 'there's something approaching gender neutrality in monotheism and pantheism but not polytheism and paganism' then there's something to discuss, and shred fairly quickly (he's using words like 'pantheism' without really knowing what they mean). But to look for a 'modern invention' (his description) in ancient traditions is a nonsense. It's like looking for evidence of helicopters in the Gospels and declaring that because a cart get mentioned that is 'close to it'. Either gender neutrality exists in ancient traditions and isn't modern at all, but you have to look for it, or it doesn't, because it's a 'modern invention'.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You and NS are trying hard to find illogicality in PF's post, but to no avail. PS writes a fair amount of bollocks, but this isn't.

Too true like a pair of bleedin locusts..............

Thanks for the ringing endorsement.