Re: Benefits Fraud

[Aruntraveller]

I hope I never have to out anyone, I am not aware of any tax dodgers or benefit fraudsters among the people with whom I am acquainted.

Have you ever paid cash in hand for a job?

If you have you'll need to arrest yourself for aiding and abetting a crime.

[Robbie]

I dislike your morality on this issue. I view it as harmful to society.

I don't like it either but I honestly think LR does not come across people who are struggling on benefits. If she did it's likely she would feel differently.

Littleroses, Humph's suggestion of 'Les Miserables' is relevant & doesn't warrant a yawn. It's a very insightful and moral story; I first read it in French when I was at school, it was a set book. I've read it again since and seen a film on TV more than once (not the musical);  you'll find a synopsis on 'net if you don't feel like wading through the book.

It's a sad state of affairs when people are grassing up neighbours for financial issues. Honestly, as I and Wigginhall said earlier in the thread, that should be reserved for more serious offences like abuse or house robbery. People on benefits struggle.

[Rhiannon]

I don't like it either but I honestly think LR does not come across people who are struggling on benefits. If she did it's likely she would feel differently.

Littleroses, Humph's suggestion of 'Les Miserables' is relevant & doesn't warrant a yawn. It's a very insightful and moral story; I first read it in French when I was at school, it was a set book. I've read it again since and seen a film on TV more than once (not the musical);  you'll find a synopsis on 'net if you don't feel like wading through the book.

It's a sad state of affairs when people are grassing up neighbours for financial issues. Honestly, as I and Wigginhall said earlier in the thread, that should be reserved for more serious offences like abuse or house robbery. People on benefits struggle.

Exactly. And with the figure of complainants being ‘shopped’ who genuinely are committing fraud being less than one percent, we have a system that is encouraging hate, and hate of the most vulnerable. I don’t know if Floo read my link earlier about a disabled man who gets ‘scrounger’ shouted at him in the street and who is now needing to be rehoused. That is what this ‘grass a scriunger’ culture enables. It’s divide and rule.

[Rhiannon]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/12/disability-benefit-appeals-department-for-work-and-pensions-figures

[Robbie]

Certainly is. Last year I was involved at work with a woman who had had her Personal Independence
claim refused, she had previously received Disability Living Allowance (not means tested, anyone can claim). It was so unjust.  I could go on all day about DLA/PIP but won't as I'm going back to work now.

[wigginhall]

Cheating the benefits system is a crime, homosexuality is no more a crime than being left-handed.

This is very disingenuous.  You must know that gay sex used to be illegal, not that long ago.   Presumably, if you had had two gay neighbours, you would have told the police, and watched them go to jail?

[Aruntraveller]

This is very disingenuous.  You must know that gay sex used to be illegal, not that long ago.   Presumably, if you had had two gay neighbours, you would have told the police, and watched them go to jail?

There does seem to be some confusion in LR's mind over what is legal and what is moral. It is as JeremyP said upthread a very difficult issue on which you can easily feel conflicted. I do know of people who are indulging in some evasion re the tax system and who are making some money out of it. Do I shop them? They are people I like who I have known a long time - is their crime as big as the evasion undertaken by the likes of Amazon etc, certainly not. So in my mind if the govt isn't prepared to tackle Amazon properly why should I shop my friends. It's not something I feel comfortable about - but I would feel a lot more uncomfortable about doing something about it. Perhaps if the government and the law had more stringent restrictions and rules in this respect people would not be able to get round things so easily. I really don't know what the answer is. I no what the answer isn't - and that is to indulge in a holier than thou approach when you've never had to walk a mile in that particular pair of high heels.

[Rhiannon]

I find tax avoidance vastly different from benefit fraud, which is what this thread was originally about. Equally I find a single mum getting a bit of cash for selling Avon in her free time different to the Jimmy Carr thing.

[Aruntraveller]

I find tax avoidance vastly different from benefit fraud, which is what this thread was originally about.

Yes I'd agree. I was just highlighting that even in an area where I would think I would be more likely to do something I still find it difficult to do on a personal level and given that the government is clearly aware of all sorts of malpractice by multinationals and are still unwilling to tackle them, but still insist on treating benefit claimants as criminals by the mere fact that they are claimants, means that I don't think a couple of my friends making a bit more by under-declaring income is something I am going to lose sleep over or get all moral about.

Moral indignation always seems to me to be some kind of way of bigging oneself up. It is one of the things I find most repellent about human nature - my own included.

[floo]

I dislike your morality on this issue. I view it as harmful to society.

So people should be permitted to fraudulently claim benefits?

[Rhiannon]

So people should be permitted to fraudulently claim benefits?

That is the job of the authorities to decide. Not you.

You haven’t answered the question I posed earlier. What kinds of evidence would you decide was adequate before shopping someone?

[floo]

I am going to exit from this thread as my BP is rising.

[Rhiannon]

Floo, you state opinions but don’t then answer questions when asked. You might actually have a case if you did so. As it is it just looks evasive.

[ekim]

So people should be permitted to fraudulently claim benefits?

Benefit Fraud for the year Apr 2016 - Mar 2017 amounted to £2 billion, according to Government statistics.

[Aruntraveller]

Benefit Fraud for the year Apr 2016 - Mar 2017 amounted to £2 billion, according to Government statistics.

Yes. However:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3279222/How-13BILLION-benefits-not-claimed-year-including-half-people-dole.html#ixzz3p6H2xgHc

And that's the Daily Mail!

[Rhiannon]

Benefit Fraud for the year Apr 2016 - Mar 2017 amounted to £2 billion, according to Government statistics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39980793

It’s 1.1% of the total budget, and includes overpayments made in error.

As opposed to the 90% plus percent of ‘cheats’ reported by neighbours who turned out to be completely blameless.

[Humph Warden Bennett]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39980793

It’s 1.1% of the total budget, and includes overpayments made in error.

As opposed to the 90% plus percent of ‘cheats’ reported by neighbours who turned out to be completely blameless.

Spot on. "Rat on a rat" which as I recall was the governments campaign slogan, turned into "Snidewatch".

[Robbie]

I find it difficult to understand how someone can grass up a neighbour over a few quid but there you go.

Rhiannon, glad you posted that link about unclaimed benefits, it's something that annoys me.  The PIP coffers alone are bursting and they dare to turn down genuine claimants. The money is just sitting there! It's not as if the government are using it for some good purpose.

[Rhiannon]

It’s amazing the difference that a few quid can make too. Not just the treats that so many take for granted - fish and chips, or a trip to the cinema - but how many times a kettle can be boiled on a day, or whether someone can buy a piece of fresh fruit.

[Robbie]

Yes & things like hair cuts, even if you go somewhere cheap it costs and especially so if you have kids.

I find it quite heartbreaking that some people are so damned mean. Amongst the people I see who are on benefits, I come across gestures of great generosity in all sorts of ways and am humbled by it.

[wigginhall]

It's partly a community issue for me.   I'm not going to report various neighbours who are fiddling tax, because they are neighbours or friends.  I have a relationship with them, and for me, that supercedes issues of legality, barring major crime of course.    Half my friends used to take drugs as if there was no tomorrow, acid mainly, what am I going to do, go to the cops?  Yeah, right.

Old slogan in therapy - you can be right, or you can relate.

[Rhiannon]

It's partly a community issue for me.   I'm not going to report various neighbours who are fiddling tax, because they are neighbours or friends.  I have a relationship with them, and for me, that supercedes issues of legality, barring major crime of course.    Half my friends used to take drugs as if there was no tomorrow, acid mainly, what am I going to do, go to the cops?  Yeah, right.

Old slogan in therapy - you can be right, or you can relate.

Yes, I agree. What comes out of the stories of those erroneously shopped by neighbours is a fear of who it might have been, what is being said, gossip and name calling. It’s not only unpleasant, it’s intomidating. People are moving home because of it. It’s the opposite of being community minded.

[jeremyp]

I find tax avoidance vastly different from benefit fraud, which is what this thread was originally about.

Yes it is vastly different: tax avoidance is not illegal.

Equally I find a single mum getting a bit of cash for selling Avon in her free time different to the Jimmy Carr thing.

Yes it is different. Not declaring your income is illegal. What Jimmy Carr did is not illegal. I have conflicting thoughts about this. On the one hand, criticising somebody who is doing something perfectly legal whilst condoning breaking the law be somebody else is somewhat hypocritical, but on the other hand, a system which forces people to break the law to have a half way reasonable standard of living is clearly a broken system.

[Rhiannon]

Morality and the law are clearly different things when it comes to who needs protecting financially.

[jeremyp]

So where is the line between illegal but morally acceptable behaviour and legal but morally unacceptable behaviour?

I have an ISA which allows me to avoid tax on my savings. Which side of the moral line am I on? What about a builder who takes cash in hand for a job so that he can evade tax?