Christians who don't make my skin crawl!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Prof,

I suspect the latter as it is hardly difficult to understand is it.

Me too. Not only is it not difficult to understand, he's also been corrected on it many time but to no avail. This kind of thing seems to amuse him though so I just leave him to it these days.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You really don't understand what Secular means do you. To reiterate - from the NSS's vision statement:

'We campaign for a secular state in which all citizens are free to practise their faith, change it, or have no faith at all.'

That's what we have at the moment. You also forget the many, many schools that were founded as a manifestation of the practical religion people had.
Short of letting this fade naturally or not since the state has decided to maintain some level of religious involvement any secularist success in the field of education would seem to involve an overnight overruling of the status quo in a display of macho trouserhugging secularism that would not reflect popular will or the actual support for a wee group like the secularist. I can't think of one major party that would wish to go down that route.
Conversely I don't see much evidence that education is particularly part of any outpouring of modern British secularism as I see no particular secularist effort to establish anything educational apart from Graylings university which seems to have sunk into irrelevance.

What I am afraid of is the sometimes wilful caricaturing of what faith practice is and my fears that secularists consider faith to be something that can go on unadvertised behind closed doors something that is undoubtedly Stalinist. I highly expect also that in an ideal NSS world people would be able to trumpet their new atheism anywhere,at anybody,anytime.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The reference to sheep though reminds me of Christopher Hitchens’ remark about the aptness of the religious talking about their “flocks” when it implies fleecing them then killing them, possibly with some dodgy sexual activity between the two events         

Which remnds me about a remark someone made about Hitchens that when he was on the left his interest in the working class was the  equivalent of Marie Antoinette's interest in sheep......Her care of which apparently involved dressing up like bo peep,

[bluehillside Retd.]

That's what we have at the moment. You also forget the many, many schools that were founded as a manifestation of the practical religion people had.
Short of letting this fade naturally or not since the state has decided to maintain some level of religious involvement any secularist success in the field of education would seem to involve an overnight overruling of the status quo in a display of macho trouserhugging secularism that would not reflect popular will or the actual support for a wee group like the secularist. I can't think of one major party that would wish to go down that route.
Conversely I don't see much evidence that education is particularly part of any outpouring of modern British secularism as I see no particular secularist effort to establish anything educational apart from Graylings university which seems to have sunk into irrelevance.

What I am afraid of is the sometimes wilful caricaturing of what faith practice is and my fears that secularists consider faith to be something that can go on unadvertised behind closed doors something that is undoubtedly Stalinist. I highly expect also that in an ideal NSS world people would be able to trumpet their new atheism anywhere,at anybody,anytime.

Is it too early to start nominations for 2018's Bonkers Post of the Year?

[ProfessorDavey]

That's what we have at the moment.

Your point being?

[ProfessorDavey]

You also forget the many, many schools that were founded as a manifestation of the practical religion people had.

I am not forgetting that at all - I am well aware of this.

Short of letting this fade naturally or not since the state has decided to maintain some level of religious involvement any secularist success in the field of education would seem to involve an overnight overruling of the status quo in a display of macho trouserhugging secularism that would not reflect popular will or the actual support for a wee group like the secularist. I can't think of one major party that would wish to go down that route.

It would indeed require a change in the status of a significant number of schools - so what, that happens regularly. In the past few years both the schools that my children attend have changed status from Community Schools to Academies (effectively driven by a government agenda). Were the government to decide that schools would no longer be permitted to have faith ethos that would be very straightforward.

And on the point of popular will - you are of course totally wrong - faith schools are unpopular - survey after survey suggests that about 60-70% of the population do not support them. Removing them would be a popular move in overall terms. The opposition would come from a minority of the population and the powerful vested interests of the CofE and RCC, which between them cont only about 2 million people as members, or about 3% of the population.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is it too early to start nominations for 2018's Bonkers Post of the Year?

No, I've nominated several of yours already.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I am not forgetting that at all - I am well aware of this.
It would indeed require a change in the status of a significant number of schools - so what, that happens regularly. In the past few years both the schools that my children attend have changed status from Community Schools to Academies (effectively driven by a government agenda). Were the government to decide that schools would no longer be permitted to have faith ethos that would be very straightforward.

And on the point of popular will - you are of course totally wrong - faith schools are unpopular - survey after survey suggests that about 60-70% of the population do not support them. Removing them would be a popular move in overall terms. The opposition would come from a minority of the population and the powerful vested interests of the CofE and RCC, which between them cont only about 2 million people as members, or about 3% of the population.

I see no party committed to their removal. If you think it's on then I would challenge you and the little wizards of  national secularism to effect. The tories won't do it because they know they will need the church to make up for the shortfall in their schemes. Labour look to local involvement and the days when an elite middle class collective such as the NSS could centrally dictate policy are over.

On the NSS they will never be satisfied with any formulation which leaves religion with a public presence being a single issue movement.

[bluehillside Retd.]

I see no party committed to their removal. If you think it's on then I would challenge you and the little wizards of  national secularism to effect. The tories won't do it because they know they will need the church to make up for the shortfall in their schemes. Labour look to local involvement and the days when an elite middle class collective such as the NSS could centrally dictate policy are over.

On the NSS they will never be satisfied with any formulation which leaves religion with a public presence being a single issue movement.

Another nomination!

[ProfessorDavey]

I see no party committed to their removal.

You are correct - our political parties are terrified of upsetting religious lobbies and of course the lobbying power of the RCC and CofE are huge.

But we aren't talking about political will, but whether abolishing faith schools is the right thing to do (I believe it is for principled and pragmatic reasons), whether it would be popular (all surveys suggest a strong majority of the public would be in favour) and whether it is feasible (it would require a very limited change in educational policy for example simply abolishing VC and VA as categories of school, requiring them to become academies and indicating than no academy can have a faith ethos).

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are correct - our political parties are terrified of upsetting religious lobbies and of course the lobbying power of the RCC and CofE are huge.

But we aren't talking about political will, but whether abolishing faith schools is the right thing to do (I believe it is for principled and pragmatic reasons), whether it would be popular (all surveys suggest a strong majority of the public would be in favour) and whether it is feasible (it would require a very limited change in educational policy for example simply abolishing VC and VA as categories of school, requiring them to become academies and indicating than no academy can have a faith ethos).

But then that is special pleading a certain ethos isn't it. Since you have got to this point what is your reason for specifically excluding this class of ethos? I'm afraid your New Atheist slip is showing on that one.

[ProfessorDavey]

But then that is special pleading a certain ethos isn't it.

No it isn't. What ethos am I special pleading for pray tell.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No it isn't. What ethos am I special pleading for pray tell.

You are specially pleading against religion. Singling it out.
What are your principles with which you are arguing an end to faith schools.

[ippy]

You are as interested in protecting religion as the farmer is protecting sheep. Why should the dog have it when I can sell it for meat?

Even Our Lord  On High RICHARD DORKINS believes in secularism Vlad, Our Lord would be mortified if people like your good self were persecuted in any way from practising your belief, even if someone was trying to do you physical harm to try to prevent you, and you have to agree with Our Lord the Great R D On High.

Regards ippy

P S Seriously I really don't see why you can't understand the aims of secularism, it's quite straight forward, their's even a large following of the aims secularism among/within the religious believing fraternity?

Regards ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

What are your principles with which you are arguing an end to faith schools.

The most significant one being that public services should be offered in an equal manner regardless of protected characteristics, in this case faith or belief. Hence we don't have 'faith' hospitals, nor 'faith' GPs, nor 'faith' leisure centres etc, etc and we should not have state funded faith schools.

Also on the principle of social cohesion - that kids should be educated alongside other kids whose make up best reflects that of their local communities. To do something else - i.e segregating kids by religion is social engineering at its worst and acts against social cohesion of communities.

Also fairness - that all parents should have a similar opportunity to gain a place at a school of their choice regardless of their religion. Currently religious parents have a greatly enhanced chances - being favoured for places at faith schools, but having equal chance at non faith schools.

[bluehillside Retd.]

You are specially pleading against religion.

In which using facts and reason to argue that faith schools are a bad idea somehow becomes “specially pleading against religion” in the hall of mirrors mind of Vladdo.

Oh well.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Even Our Lord  On High RICHARD DORKINS believes in secularism Vlad, Our Lord would be mortified if people like your good self were persecuted in any way from practising your belief, even if someone was trying to do you physical harm to try to prevent you, and you have to agree with Our Lord the Great R D On High.

Regards ippy

P S Seriously I really don't see why you can't understand the aims of secularism, it's quite straight forward, their's even a large following of the aims secularism among/within the religious believing fraternity?

Regards ippy

Nobody has been forced to convert to Christianity for several centuries in this country although I understand that employment in the UK's capitalist history has sometimes stipulated church attendance, but certainly not in my lifetime.
As a former agnostic atheist back in the day I didn't see or experience any problems over any public power or influence the church had  Nearly four decades later the church has less power and influence. Since I ceased being an agnostic atheist before the internet and New atheism would I now be on this forum coming out with amazing stories of being done down by religion if I had remained as an agnatheist, I doubt it.

I don't agree with the NSS Ippy and that's about it.

[ProfessorDavey]

In which using facts and reason to argue that faith schools are a bad idea somehow becomes “specially pleading against religion” in the hall of mirrors mind of Vladdo.

Oh well.

Indeed - I have no issue with people choosing to be religious, nor practicing their religion, indeed I have no problem with churches setting up schools (provided they are registered and inspected) providing that doesn't involve state funding.

My issue is state funded faith schools - and there is no special pleading because I just as opposed to state funded humanist schools, state funded atheist schools, state funded vegan schools, state funded Conservative schools, state funded White supremicist schools. The only reason why I don't need to campaign for the abolition of those kinds of schools is because they don't exist.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In which using facts and reason to argue that faith schools are a bad idea somehow becomes “specially pleading against religion” in the hall of mirrors mind of Vladdo.

Oh well.

What other type of sponsor would he disallow from running schools?

He is in trouble because if he or you ever did outline any you would be laughed at on the grounds of swivel eyed paranoid nonsense.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed - I have no issue with people choosing to be religious, nor practicing their religion, indeed I have no problem with churches setting up schools (provided they are registered and inspected) providing that doesn't involve state funding.

My issue is state funded faith schools - and there is no special pleading because I just as opposed..............to state funded White supremicist schools.

Fair enough.
Although you say Conservatives aren't represented in the running of schools. Harris academies?

[ProfessorDavey]

Fair enough.

Why have you removed all the others - are you in favour of state funded Conservative schools, with an ethos aligned to the Conservative party. And who are allowed to have their own special politics curriculum, with their own inspectors (cos ordinary Ofsted inspectors wont understand), with a clear 'evangelical' mission such that success means churning out little Tory voters. And who expect you to be a Tory party member in order to have a chance of getting in, with proof needed that you vote Tory.

Happy with that?

But actually the broader point is that I am not engaged in special pleading at all as I oppose state funding in all those cases, it is just in most cases the issue is moot as they don't exist.

[bluehillside Retd.]

What other type of sponsor would he disallow from running schools?

In which Vladdo pretends that the Prof hasn't made it perfectly clear that he's against the state funding of any school the peddles a partisan agenda. Whether that agenda is religious, political or anything else doesn't matter.

He is in trouble because if he or you ever did outline any you would be laughed at on the grounds of swivel eyed paranoid nonsense.

In which Vladdo proves (as if further proof were needed) that he really, really doesn't do irony.

[ProfessorDavey]

What other type of sponsor would he disallow from running schools?

In what way is the RCC or the CofE a 'sponsor' - to my mind that implies a requirement to provide funding. There is no requirement for the CofE or RCC to provide a penny toward the running of a state faith school.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In what way is the RCC or the CofE a 'sponsor' - to my mind that implies a requirement to provide funding. There is no requirement for the CofE or RCC to provide a penny toward the running of a state faith school.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/sponsor-an-academy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_aided_school
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_controlled_school