Author Topic: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!  (Read 72201 times)

SteveH

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Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« on: February 15, 2018, 01:53:40 PM »
Just for a bit of balance:
Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Jackie Pullinger, Rowan Williams, Tony Campolo, The Salvation Army, and the thousands of ordinary Christians giving generously to charities, both in money and in time. LR is forever banging on about the nasty Christians, and they exist, but let's have a bit of balance.
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floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 01:58:45 PM »
And I also point out there are a lot of decent Christians too who do a lot of good for society!

SteveH

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 02:15:44 PM »
And I also point out there are a lot of decent Christians too who do a lot of good for society!
When was the last time?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2018, 02:20:34 PM »
SteveH,

Quote
When was the last time?

In the OP of her thread: "Fortunately for me I know some very decent Christians too, like my own three girls."
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floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2018, 02:45:14 PM »
SteveH,

In the OP of her thread: "Fortunately for me I know some very decent Christians too, like my own three girls."

Thanks BHS. :)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2018, 03:35:28 PM »
Those who bring food & drink (and YES LR that includes wine) to our services, we have a mutual meal afterwards.


floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2018, 03:47:06 PM »
Those who bring food & drink (and YES LR that includes wine) to our services, we have a mutual meal afterwards.

I do drink wine in moderation, so there! ::)

Rhiannon

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2018, 06:12:27 PM »
To the OP:

My mum.

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2018, 10:22:58 PM »
Mine too and Dad and in-laws, liberal, none ever banged on about it, just live/lived it.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2018, 10:35:46 PM »
Just for a bit of balance:
Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Jackie Pullinger, Rowan Williams, Tony Campolo, The Salvation Army, and the thousands of ordinary Christians giving generously to charities, both in money and in time. LR is forever banging on about the nasty Christians, and they exist, but let's have a bit of balance.
Most Christians that I know, including of course my wife.

Actually I very rarely come in contact with any of the extreme evangelical Christians who give the religion such a bad name. The vast majority I know hold very similar ethical positions to myself, albeit they are derived from different routes. But then again there is little difference between 'love thy neighbour' and the humanist golden rule.

Most Christians I know are also non-dogmatic. So although their religion might teach (for example) that homosexuality is wrong, or sex before marriage is wrong, or contraception is wrong, or abortion is wrong they stand shoulder to shoulder with me in terms of supporting the rights of individuals to be allowed to marry regardless of their sexuality, or that it is the choice of a woman alone to determine whether or not to have an abortion etc etc.

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2018, 10:38:54 PM »
I have same experience Prof, have rarely met extremists.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2018, 10:41:36 PM »
Most Christians that I know, including of course my wife.

Actually I very rarely come in contact with any of the extreme evangelical Christians who give the religion such a bad name. The vast majority I know hold very similar ethical positions to myself, albeit they are derived from different routes. But then again there is little difference between 'love thy neighbour' and the humanist golden rule.

Most Christians I know are also non-dogmatic. So although their religion might teach (for example) that homosexuality is wrong, or sex before marriage is wrong, or contraception is wrong, or abortion is wrong they stand shoulder to shoulder with me in terms of supporting the rights of individuals to be allowed to marry regardless of their sexuality, or that it is the choice of a woman alone to determine whether or not to have an abortion etc etc.
That being said ...

Check out my post on the Christians who make my skin crawl! thread.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2018, 10:50:45 PM »
I have same experience Prof, have rarely met extremists.
I suspect that extremists (of all flavours) tend to hang out with other like minded extremists so they can reinforce their extremism. nothing punctures extremist fervour more that someone challenging them or (perhaps worse) simply implying that they simply don't care.

Maeght

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2018, 11:01:36 PM »
The vast majority of everyday Christians.

Owlswing

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2018, 11:42:56 PM »

Just for a bit of balance:
Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Jackie Pullinger, Rowan Williams, Tony Campolo, The Salvation Army, and the thousands of ordinary Christians giving generously to charities, both in money and in time. LR is forever banging on about the nasty Christians, and they exist, but let's have a bit of balance.


Hmm- shame about their attitude to gays and trans
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2018, 11:52:20 PM »
Hmm- shame about their attitude to gays and trans
Indeed - I have no time for the Salvation Army although I rather enjoy their focus on music.

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2018, 12:28:04 AM »
The Salvation Army do not have homosexual or trans soldiers; however:-

www.salvationarmy.org.uk/inclusion

I have great respect for them, have known some all my life.
On Steve's list, apart from Rowan Williams & Tony Campolo, I'd have thought all had reservations about homosexual relationships (not the orientation). Not my bag but as long as they don't discriminate and pontificate, it's just their personal belief - which could change! Think how far we've come in the last few years, there's always hope.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2018, 08:24:25 AM »
This and its companion thread seem to me something you could take out the word Christian and submit almost any descriptor if some form of belief in how you should live, A couple of weeks ago I got stuck in conversation with a militant Corbyn supporter who thought that my doubts about Corbyn were shouldn't be expressed because that was dangerous. Maybe it's the JC thing, as followers of the comic messiah have also expressed such sentiments to me

Nearly Sane

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2018, 08:30:13 AM »
I suspect that extremists (of all flavours) tend to hang out with other like minded extremists so they can reinforce their extremism. nothing punctures extremist fervour more that someone challenging them or (perhaps worse) simply implying that they simply don't care.
My experience of extremists is that both of these lead them to more fervour

floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2018, 09:19:12 AM »
My experience of extremists is that both of these lead them to more fervour

And mine too.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2018, 10:29:45 AM »
NS,

Quote
This and its companion thread seem to me something you could take out the word Christian and submit almost any descriptor if some form of belief in how you should live,

That’s missing the heart of it I think. It's dogmatic belief, not just belief that's the problem. If, say, I found yoga helpful and thought other people would too so should also live their lives that way there are various things I might do: I might teach an evening class; I might start a blog about it; I might even write a book extolling its virtues. What I wouldn’t do though is to insist on seats in the legislature because of my convictions, special schools set aside in which my unqualified claims would be taught as facts, open door access to media outlets whenever they needed someone to pontificate on subjects about which I had no expertise at all. Nor would I use it to “other” groups of which I didn’t approve (those non-yoga-ists eh? Still, I’ll do my best to bring them to the true light – "hate the sin and love the sinner" and all that).

The primary issue isn’t I think about Christians who make my “skin crawl” (though many do) but rather that Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, and…) make my skin crawl. “But Auntie Doreen is a god-fearing woman and she’s really nice” I don’t doubt for a minute. What I also see though is grotesque stuff that’s so commonplace, so ingrained that it’s hiding in plain sight and so goes largely unremarked. When that nice Archbishop Welby tells us he’s "struggling deeply with the issue of homosexuality" for example, then my reaction is if you’ll pardon my French is, “well fuck you then.” Who the hell does he think he is even to think that there is “an issue” at all, and how dare he give cover to those who would beat up gay men on the street. Look, it’s very simple: either you think equality is paramount or you don’t. If you do, then show some moral leadership (you know, the thing Archbishops are supposed to do) and say so loudly and clearly; if you don’t, then you’re part of the problem and not the solution. And yes I’ve heard the defence of, “but if I did the right thing bishops in Africa even more backward on this than I am would break away and that would be even worse for gay people there” but his current ambivalence also comes at a cost, and if he doesn’t show moral leadership to his own church then who will?

And so it goes. The RCs directly responsible for killing, what, hundreds of thousands every year with policies that cause unsustainably large families, the unchecked spread of AIDS, personal misery for millions for perfectly harmless (and probably healthy) sexual practices. What’s that you say, “but we’ve opened some clinics for AIDS victims, and some homes for “fallen” women”? So you bloody well should – when you cause the problem in the first place, don’t use as a defence putting a sticking plaster over it in the hope no-one notices.

Oh, and while we’re here this is what faith that thinks it knows – really knows – better than “mere” reason does. It gives these people a higher calling than the dull old secular law so if they get the word that a priest is raping children, not a problem – we’ll just move him elsewhere so he can wreck a few more lives. After all, God knows best and has a higher purpose for him right? And if the heat really gets a bit much, still not a problem – we’ll just whip him back to HQ so the local plod can’t reach him at all. Job done!

And there’s more – so much more. I know – let’s convince priests that the sanctity of the confessional is such that, even if someone tells you he’s planted a bomb in a classroom of children set to go off an hour later, you’re still not allowed to shop him. Better to have the kiddies blown to smithereens than to displease my imaginary (but ever so good, honest) god eh?

So no, I don’t admire these people at all. Not because their beliefs are palpably idiotic, but because we privilege those beliefs in public life such that they get taken seriously and so can actually matter. So for every po-faced, holier-than-though, Thought for the Day reading, “I know better than you because I have faith, and I’m am better person too”, minority hating, misogynistic, paedophile protecting, education polluting, science denying, inequality supporting, patronising cleric and their fellow travellers I say “fuck you” too. Disestablish your churches, stop taking tax payer money, re-open as private members’ clubs if you must and we can all point and laugh as we do the flat-earthers.           
           
Until then though, yes they do make my skin crawl even though I’d happily have a cup of tea and a garibaldi with Auntie Doreen if she wanted me to.

And another thing…

« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 10:35:06 AM by bluehillside Retd. »
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Stranger

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2018, 11:15:17 AM »
blue (#20), well said!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2018, 12:34:20 PM »
NS,

That’s missing the heart of it I think. It's dogmatic belief, not just belief that's the problem. If, say, I found yoga helpful and thought other people would too so should also live their lives that way there are various things I might do: I might teach an evening class; I might start a blog about it; I might even write a book extolling its virtues. What I wouldn’t do though is to insist on seats in the legislature because of my convictions, special schools set aside in which my unqualified claims would be taught as facts, open door access to media outlets whenever they needed someone to pontificate on subjects about which I had no expertise at all. Nor would I use it to “other” groups of which I didn’t approve (those non-yoga-ists eh? Still, I’ll do my best to bring them to the true light – "hate the sin and love the sinner" and all that).

The primary issue isn’t I think about Christians who make my “skin crawl” (though many do) but rather that Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, and…) make my skin crawl. “But Auntie Doreen is a god-fearing woman and she’s really nice” I don’t doubt for a minute. What I also see though is grotesque stuff that’s so commonplace, so ingrained that it’s hiding in plain sight and so goes largely unremarked. When that nice Archbishop Welby tells us he’s "struggling deeply with the issue of homosexuality" for example, then my reaction is if you’ll pardon my French is, “well fuck you then.” Who the hell does he think he is even to think that there is “an issue” at all, and how dare he give cover to those who would beat up gay men on the street. Look, it’s very simple: either you think equality is paramount or you don’t. If you do, then show some moral leadership (you know, the thing Archbishops are supposed to do) and say so loudly and clearly; if you don’t, then you’re part of the problem and not the solution. And yes I’ve heard the defence of, “but if I did the right thing bishops in Africa even more backward on this than I am would break away and that would be even worse for gay people there” but his current ambivalence also comes at a cost, and if he doesn’t show moral leadership to his own church then who will?

And so it goes. The RCs directly responsible for killing, what, hundreds of thousands every year with policies that cause unsustainably large families, the unchecked spread of AIDS, personal misery for millions for perfectly harmless (and probably healthy) sexual practices. What’s that you say, “but we’ve opened some clinics for AIDS victims, and some homes for “fallen” women”? So you bloody well should – when you cause the problem in the first place, don’t use as a defence putting a sticking plaster over it in the hope no-one notices.

Oh, and while we’re here this is what faith that thinks it knows – really knows – better than “mere” reason does. It gives these people a higher calling than the dull old secular law so if they get the word that a priest is raping children, not a problem – we’ll just move him elsewhere so he can wreck a few more lives. After all, God knows best and has a higher purpose for him right? And if the heat really gets a bit much, still not a problem – we’ll just whip him back to HQ so the local plod can’t reach him at all. Job done!

And there’s more – so much more. I know – let’s convince priests that the sanctity of the confessional is such that, even if someone tells you he’s planted a bomb in a classroom of children set to go off an hour later, you’re still not allowed to shop him. Better to have the kiddies blown to smithereens than to displease my imaginary (but ever so good, honest) god eh?

So no, I don’t admire these people at all. Not because their beliefs are palpably idiotic, but because we privilege those beliefs in public life such that they get taken seriously and so can actually matter. So for every po-faced, holier-than-though, Thought for the Day reading, “I know better than you because I have faith, and I’m am better person too”, minority hating, misogynistic, paedophile protecting, education polluting, science denying, inequality supporting, patronising cleric and their fellow travellers I say “fuck you” too. Disestablish your churches, stop taking tax payer money, re-open as private members’ clubs if you must and we can all point and laugh as we do the flat-earthers.           
           
Until then though, yes they do make my skin crawl even though I’d happily have a cup of tea and a garibaldi with Auntie Doreen if she wanted me to.

And another thing…

And  I think that misses the point entirely too. Belief itself isn't dogmatic, people are, that is we seem to be inclined to think our beliefs are absolutely true. Religion didn't do this as its a symptom not a cause, and as you have already covered it's not just religion that could do this. Your yoga example seems to me based on a mistake in that just because yoga followers haven't done that doesn't mean that they might not do so. To take an example, you mention that you either think equality is paramount or not, well some animal activists would see anyone not completely vegan as supporting inequality and being part of the problem, and arguably many communists supporting an idea of equality thought it good to murder millions for the good of equality.
Now we could go down the route that these were wrong about their idea of equality, but we are in No True Scotsman territory here.


Belief systems that lead to dogmatism need none of the specifics of religions. It seems rather just be what we do- now I'm not arguing here that that makes it right but rather looking on religion in any sense as a special case is unfounded. All my point was emphasising was your own position that it isn't religion that leads to dogmatism but that belief systems can be held dogmatically. Your position on this has always seemed to me based on the idea that somehow religion is 'external' which for an atheist I find odd,

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2018, 01:32:33 PM »
NS,

Quote
And  I think that misses the point entirely too. Belief itself isn't dogmatic, people are, that is we seem to be inclined to think our beliefs are absolutely true. Religion didn't do this as its a symptom not a cause, and as you have already covered it's not just religion that could do this. Your yoga example seems to me based on a mistake in that just because yoga followers haven't done that doesn't mean that they might not do so.

Nope. You’re missing the key difference still – faith. “Belief itself” is dogmatic when it’s a faith. What else could it be? “But that’s my faith” is the beginning and end of it, so there’s no possibility even of falsifying it, whether its object happens to be a god or leprechauns. That is, some beliefs have certainty baked in (religious ones for example) whereas others don’t (yoga for example). For the latter, yes it does mean that yoga followers might not do so because they have no unfalsifiable faith rationale to support them – inasmuch as they make objective claims of fact about the world those claims can be investigated and validated or falsified as may be. Now try that with the claim of objective fact, “God”.     

Quote
To take an example, you mention that you either think equality is paramount or not, well some animal activists would see anyone not completely vegan as supporting inequality and being part of the problem, and arguably many communists supporting an idea of equality thought it good to murder millions for the good of equality.

Yes they may do, and those arguments can be considered on their merits or demerits too. That says nothing though to the argument under discussion, namely that Welby (in this example) either thinks equality is key or he doesn’t. He has to get to, “no it isn’t” to open the door to differential treatment (“hate the sin”), but if he does you can then populate the list of bigotries with anything you (or your “holy” texts) happen to light on.   

Quote
Now we could go down the route that these were wrong about their idea of equality, but we are in No True Scotsman territory here.

We could, but it wouldn’t be relevant. Comparing the rights of people (ie, gay vs non-gay) is comparing apples with apples - they’re all people; comparing the rights of people with the rights of animals isn’t. 

Quote
Belief systems that lead to dogmatism need none of the specifics of religions. It seems rather just be what we do- now I'm not arguing here that that makes it right but rather looking on religion in any sense as a special case is unfounded.

I didn’t – as I made clear. The category of “special case” is for dogmatic, certain, faith-based beliefs – religion is obviously a big example of it, but it’s by no means the only one. 

Quote
All my point was emphasising was your own position that it isn't religion that leads to dogmatism but that belief systems can be held dogmatically. Your position on this has always seemed to me based on the idea that somehow religion is 'external' which for an atheist I find odd,

You’ll need to clarify that I think. External to what? I see religion as a particularly pernicious example of dogmatic belief (because of the harm it does in the real world, snippets of which I referred to in my post). It’s not that “belief systems can be held dogmatically” though – it’s that some belief systems are dogmatic in their essence, necessarily so when their rationale is “faith”. You seem to be suggesting that beliefs are of a piece, only sometimes people choose to hold them dogmatically – a top down approach. I think it’s the other way round (ie, bottom up) – some types of belief are necessarily dogmatic because they rest fundamentally on faith, and when that’s your starting point there’s nowhere else to go. You believe them or you don’t, but there’s no epistemology involved.         
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SteveH

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2018, 01:46:04 PM »
You're defining "faith" as "dogmatism" in the first place, so naturally it is then beyond argument and unfalsifiable. I'm sure that's a logical fallacy - petitio principii? No true Scotsman? One of them. Or something.
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