Author Topic: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!  (Read 72611 times)

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #125 on: February 18, 2018, 02:37:19 PM »
I agree that loving, faithful, lifelong homosexual relationships are not evil; indeed are positively good.

What about homosexual relationships that are not lifelong? You have now fallen into the typical Anglican trap of trying to be all things to all people, an older version is that you want to run with the hare, and hunt with the hounds at the same time.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #126 on: February 18, 2018, 02:42:30 PM »
I feel the same about short, fleeting relationships based on great sex.
But is that lurve or lurst?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #127 on: February 18, 2018, 02:42:53 PM »
What about homosexual relationships that are not lifelong?
What about heterosexual relationships that are not lifelong? Why is the sexuality of the couple involved relevant?

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2018, 02:59:18 PM »
What about heterosexual relationships that are not lifelong? Why is the sexuality of the couple involved relevant?

It is not. Casual sex of any kind is frowned upon.

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2018, 03:06:26 PM »
It's possible to have short term relationships that are not casual, can be pretty intense at the time but during the course the parties realise it's not for keeps because their differences are too great. They may part as friends. I'd say most people I know have had those. As long as they behave decently towards eachother I don't see them as wrong. Whether hetero or homosexual is irrelevant to me.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2018, 03:08:45 PM »
It is not. Casual sex of any kind is frowned upon.
Yes, I agree all sex should be black tie

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2018, 03:15:03 PM »
Yes, I agree all sex should be black tie

Not Dress Optional?  ;)

SteveH

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2018, 03:17:06 PM »
"Thank you for having me."
"Thank you for coming."
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #133 on: February 18, 2018, 03:19:32 PM »
It is not. Casual sex of any kind is frowned upon.
In which case therefore there should be absolutely no issue with a married couple who have made a lifelong commitment, regardless of whether the couple are heterosexual or homosexual.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #134 on: February 18, 2018, 03:22:34 PM »
In which case therefore there should be absolutely no issue with a married couple who have made a lifelong commitment, regardless of whether the couple are heterosexual or homosexual.

Er, No.

We do not recognise same sex marriage. It is against our culture. If you don't like that, then do not join our church.

As you once said to me on a discussion about Yellow Boxes on junctions.....simples.

floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #135 on: February 18, 2018, 03:24:05 PM »
Er, No.

We do not recognise same sex marriage. It is against our culture. If you don't like that, then do not join our church.

As you once said to me on a discussion about Yellow Boxes on junctions.....simples.

Maybe it is about time your culture was dragged into the 21st century as it is bigoted.

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #136 on: February 18, 2018, 03:30:33 PM »
Maybe it is about time your culture was dragged into the 21st century as it is bigoted.

The whole point about our culture is that is does not change. As far as we are concerned the RCC is a heretical group that broke away from us in the eleventh century.


floo

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #137 on: February 18, 2018, 03:41:21 PM »
The whole point about our culture is that is does not change. As far as we are concerned the RCC is a heretical group that broke away from us in the eleventh century.

In doesn't say much for people who cling onto something as unpleasant as your belief system. :o

Humph Warden Bennett

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #138 on: February 18, 2018, 03:42:46 PM »
In doesn't say much for people who cling onto something as unpleasant as your belief system. :o

Such as our belief that murder is wrong?

Rhiannon

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #139 on: February 18, 2018, 04:01:27 PM »
Such as our belief that murder is wrong?

Think you’ll find that’s not exclusively yours.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2018, 04:10:17 PM »
Maybe it is about time your culture was dragged into the 21st century as it is bigoted.
what a place to be dragged into.....The end of welfare....The vilification of charity...The return of the evil poor and the virtuousness of money...
modern slavery.....rising violence...

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #141 on: February 18, 2018, 04:22:20 PM »
In doesn't say much for people who cling onto something as unpleasant as your belief system. :o

We're talking about just one issue here LR & there is a whole lot more to any belief system than one issue.

The point is HWB and many others from all sorts of belief systems do not apply the same rules to others that they choose to apply to themselves.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #142 on: February 18, 2018, 06:49:13 PM »
NS,

That’s missing the heart of it I think. It's dogmatic belief, not just belief that's the problem. If, say, I found yoga helpful and thought other people would too so should also live their lives that way there are various things I might do: I might teach an evening class; I might start a blog about it; I might even write a book extolling its virtues. What I wouldn’t do though is to insist on seats in the legislature because of my convictions, special schools set aside in which my unqualified claims would be taught as facts, open door access to media outlets whenever they needed someone to pontificate on subjects about which I had no expertise at all. Nor would I use it to “other” groups of which I didn’t approve (those non-yoga-ists eh? Still, I’ll do my best to bring them to the true light – "hate the sin and love the sinner" and all that).

The primary issue isn’t I think about Christians who make my “skin crawl” (though many do) but rather that Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, and…) make my skin crawl. “But Auntie Doreen is a god-fearing woman and she’s really nice” I don’t doubt for a minute. What I also see though is grotesque stuff that’s so commonplace, so ingrained that it’s hiding in plain sight and so goes largely unremarked. When that nice Archbishop Welby tells us he’s "struggling deeply with the issue of homosexuality" for example, then my reaction is if you’ll pardon my French is, “well fuck you then.” Who the hell does he think he is even to think that there is “an issue” at all, and how dare he give cover to those who would beat up gay men on the street.

Oh, and while we’re here this is what faith that thinks it knows – really knows – better than “mere” reason does. It gives these people a higher calling than the dull old secular law so if they get the word that a priest is raping children, not a problem – we’ll just move him elsewhere so he can wreck a few more lives. After all, God knows best and has a higher purpose for him right? And if the heat really gets a bit much, still not a problem – we’ll just whip him back to HQ so the local plod can’t reach him at all. Job done!

And there’s more – so much more. I know – let’s convince priests that the sanctity of the confessional is such that, even if someone tells you he’s planted a bomb in a classroom of children set to go off an hour later, you’re still not allowed to shop him. Better to have the kiddies blown to smithereens than to displease my imaginary (but ever so good, honest) god eh?

So no, I don’t admire these people at all. Not because their beliefs are palpably idiotic, but because we privilege those beliefs in public life such that they get taken seriously and so can actually matter. So for every po-faced, holier-than-though, Thought for the Day reading, “I know better than you because I have faith, and I’m am better person too”, minority hating, misogynistic, paedophile protecting, education polluting, science denying, inequality supporting, patronising cleric and their fellow travellers I say “fuck you” too. Disestablish your churches, stop taking tax payer money, re-open as private members’ clubs if you must and we can all point and laugh as we do the flat-earthers.
It's supply and demand. Clearly there is a demand in some parts of society for the religious privileges you mentioned to continue. Non-religious groups in society also seem to have extra privileges and influence - the wealthy, celebrities, people with titles and while enough people exist in society who are ok about letting those privileges and influence continue, not a lot will change.

When there is enough of a drop in the number of people wanting faith schools or when enough people want to reform the legislature etc  - when the demand drops, so too will the privileges. It's a bit like Brexit - and change will probably be equally contentious. We have to abide by the outcomes of the democratic process, but thanks to free speech you are allowed to complain about it.   

And while we are on the subject of free speech, you can accuse any law-abiding person who expresses any opinion you don't like of giving "intellectual cover" for a third party's criminal behaviour. Your concept of "intellectual cover" seems to be a poorly disguised attack on free speech. In which case I think it is vitally important that I and anyone else who supports free speech continue to give intellectual cover at every opportunity.     

The examples you gave about the cover-up of abuse or the sanctity of confession etc can't be used to generalise about every person's faith in action. There may well be many similar examples but given the cover-up of abuse in schools, charities, UN Peacekeeping forces, Hollywood, it seems like covering-up is a human behaviour which can exist with or without religion. These examples can't be used to generalise about every single person who has faith and who is not involved in these kinds of behaviour - to do so just comes across as bigotry on your part. Not that you necessarily need to care that you come across in that way.
           
ETA - I too could argue that your Islam and Christianity "makes my skin crawl" line provides intellectual cover for children being bullied because they are religious.

https://www.childline.org.uk/info-advice/bullying-abuse-safety/types-bullying/faith-religious-bullying/
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 07:31:08 PM by Gabriella »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #143 on: February 18, 2018, 06:58:49 PM »
SteveH,

Yes I am calling faith dogmatic - "I know I'm right because my faith tells me so" is dogmatic. What else could it be? How would you propose to argue against it?
Not really sure why this line of argument is only directed at faith and those religious people who "know" they are right.

"I know I'm right because my morals tell me so" is equally dogmatic. So for example how would you propose to argue against "I know I am right that equality should be paramount because my morals tell me so, and therefore my concept or interpretation of equality should be enforced by legislation"?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SteveH

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #144 on: February 18, 2018, 07:05:01 PM »
SteveH,

Yes I am calling faith dogmatic - "I know I'm right because my faith tells me so" is dogmatic. What else could it be? How would you propose to argue against it?

And no, those logical fallacies don't apply.
I would never say that, and nor would most of the Christians I know. I did once work for a few months with a happy-clappy whose only response to anti-religious arguments was "I don't care, I've got faith", but he was an idiot.
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

Anchorman

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #145 on: February 18, 2018, 07:13:58 PM »
It's a metaphor that makes my skin crawl. Sue me.
   




Sometimes that metaphor's worth the investment - he posted as a former Boy and Officer of the oldest Christian uniformed youth movement, the Boys' Brigade.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

SteveH

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #146 on: February 18, 2018, 07:27:46 PM »
   




Sometimes that metaphor's worth the investment - he posted as a former Boy and Officer of the oldest Christian uniformed youth movement, the Boys' Brigade.
Who did?
I have a pet termite. His name is Clint. Clint eats wood.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #147 on: February 18, 2018, 07:33:56 PM »
Sometimes that metaphor's worth the investment - he posted as a former Boy and Officer of the oldest Christian uniformed youth movement, the Boys' Brigade.
Can you explain the whole uniformed, quasi-military religious movement thing. I've always found it a bit odd and never really understood it. Genuine question.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #148 on: February 18, 2018, 08:43:22 PM »
what a place to be dragged into.....The end of welfare....The vilification of charity...The return of the evil poor and the virtuousness of money...
modern slavery.....rising violence...

Yes but to be fair that's what happens when you are ruled by the Tories. Now if only I lived in Finland.
Or indeed anywhere that a government puts the populations needs above the short term needs of their own party and its supporters and donors.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #149 on: February 18, 2018, 09:01:16 PM »
what a place to be dragged into.....The end of welfare....The vilification of charity...The return of the evil poor and the virtuousness of money...
modern slavery.....rising violence...
And when, pray tell us, was the golden age in your opinion?