Author Topic: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!  (Read 72673 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #800 on: March 06, 2018, 06:50:21 PM »
Why not just bin the HoL and be done with it: all of it.
That is more by way of tackling privilege.

Anchorman

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #801 on: March 06, 2018, 06:57:25 PM »
The HOL needs overhaul yes. What is needed, what is optimal is the representation of peoples lives at the highest level. And not a constitutional procrustean view of the human inevitably designed to make people conform.
   




The HOL is diddly squat to to with the UK, Vlad, and you know it.
Like the other shower, it's simply the pre union English parliamernt with lip service to the other nations. It isn't british in constitution; it's English and always has been. It isn't due for reform; it's due for abolition.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #802 on: March 06, 2018, 06:58:43 PM »
Quote
Any secularism that excludes the likes of me is not worthy of the title.

In which Vladdo still fails to grasp that secularism would both include and protect the rights of even a swivel-eyed paranoiac such as himself.
"Don't make me come down there."

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Maeght

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #803 on: March 06, 2018, 06:59:45 PM »
Can I just ask Private Fraser why you think you would be excluded from secularism?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #804 on: March 06, 2018, 07:22:06 PM »
   




The HOL is diddly squat to to with the UK, Vlad, and you know it.
Like the other shower, it's simply the pre union English parliamernt with lip service to the other nations. It isn't british in constitution; it's English and always has been. It isn't due for reform; it's due for abolition.
That's not going to happen anytime soon, I think the model of humanity as a secular and spiritual animal is sound, I am happy that many in other faith communities feel secure that any hostile secularism of an antitheist stripe is at least partly offset by the presence of the Bishops and finally I would put my pluralism against exclusion.

So religious people get into the House of Lords. Who or what would they be representing. Cue some atheistic response.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #805 on: March 06, 2018, 07:30:20 PM »
In which Vladdo still fails to grasp that secularism would both include and protect the rights of even a swivel-eyed paranoiac such as himself.
I hope you're not including yourself there Blue.

SweetPea

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #806 on: March 06, 2018, 07:59:57 PM »
In which Vladdo still fails to grasp that secularism would both include and protect the rights of even a swivel-eyed paranoiac such as himself.

Anyone else would be moderated for a comment such as this, so what's going on??
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Robbie

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #807 on: March 06, 2018, 08:04:11 PM »
It's not what you know it's who you know SP.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

SweetPea

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #808 on: March 06, 2018, 08:05:27 PM »
It's not what you know it's who you know SP.

'fraid so, Robbie..
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power and of love and of a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7

Gordon

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #809 on: March 06, 2018, 08:10:49 PM »
That's not going to happen anytime soon, I think the model of humanity as a secular and spiritual animal is sound, I am happy that many in other faith communities feel secure that any hostile secularism of an antitheist stripe is at least partly offset by the presence of the Bishops and finally I would put my pluralism against exclusion.

So religious people get into the House of Lords. Who or what would they be representing. Cue some atheistic response.

Vlad

These are Church of England bishops: so presumably (as a fellow Scot by birth, as you once confessed iirc) you can see that those of us who aren't English (never mind whether we are theists or not) might see this as being an unacceptable special privilege?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #810 on: March 06, 2018, 08:13:59 PM »
Sweet Pea,

I think you’ll find that these expressions and more are lifted from Vladdio’s efforts.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #811 on: March 06, 2018, 08:22:15 PM »
Vlad

These are Church of England bishops: so presumably (as a fellow Scot by birth, as you once confessed iirc) you can see that those of us who aren't English (never mind whether we are theists or not) might see this as being an unacceptable special privilege?
Yes I see that. But as Michael Caine would say ''They're still bleedin' Bishops ain't they?''

Gordon

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #812 on: March 06, 2018, 08:27:41 PM »
Yes I see that. But as Michael Caine would say ''They're still bleedin' Bishops ain't they?''

He might: but then they are unelected and they represent a minority organisation, and some of us are concerned that they get to interfere in political governance affecting the rest of us - as far as I'm aware they have no mandate here in Scotland.

So we need to bin them (along with their 'Lords Temporal' colleagues).

Enki

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #813 on: March 06, 2018, 08:53:42 PM »
When I replied to Gonnagle, I was commenting in the context of him being a Christian and that this is a Christian topic, but to answer your first question, inner stillness can be a helpful stance in those circumstances.  When engrossed in an intellectual pursuit, I suspect that is when the Eureka moment occurs, and when surrounded by emotional turmoil, with practise a peaceful centre can be found from which to act or not act.  In answer to your second question, I would have to give a 'Jesus' approach to prayer (asking) rather than a Christian one i.e. 'God knows your requirements before you ask' which I believe means the requirement of release from deviating self centredness (sin) and union with God centredness, in a phrase, the Kingdom of Heaven within.

I genuinely see no real difference between the idea of taking time to pause and reflect and inner stillness when trying to resolve a serious issue. Both descriptions suggest the same thing surely, i.e. that we should try to take an important decision separate from any undue emotional overtones, so that a balanced  decision has the best chance possible of being achieved.

The alternative of praying, as I see it, has the possible unfortunate consequence of relying on whatever you think God is supposed to want. Indeed, the very act of praying may arouse all sorts of emotions, some of which may be helpful, but just as easily may be counterproductive.
Sometimes I wish my first word was 'quote,' so that on my death bed, my last words could be 'end quote.'
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #814 on: March 06, 2018, 08:58:41 PM »
He might: but then they are unelected and they represent a minority organisation, and some of us are concerned that they get to interfere in political governance affecting the rest of us - as far as I'm aware they have no mandate here in Scotland.

So we need to bin them (along with their 'Lords Temporal' colleagues).
There's only 26 of them agin 724 Lords temporal and there can be any number of Lords temporal,
Scottish representation is a Lords Temporal issue. Therefore if there is some shortfall that would need to be redressed there.
/To demand abolition of the HOL is a true demand for removal of privilege but, like getting Conservatives out of Scotland it is not going to happen.

Gordon

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #815 on: March 06, 2018, 09:10:34 PM »
There's only 26 of them agin 724 Lords temporal and there can be any number of Lords temporal,
Scottish representation is a Lords Temporal issue. Therefore if there is some shortfall that would need to be redressed there.
/To demand abolition of the HOL is a true demand for removal of privilege but, like getting Conservatives out of Scotland it is not going to happen.

I suspect it would if we got Scotland out of the UK: can't see a role for the CofE in an independent Scotland - but what we are addressing currently is religious privilege in the UK political arena, and while CofE involvement may have fitted the 16th century England political climate it doesn't really fly in UK terms 5 centuries later.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #816 on: March 06, 2018, 09:40:00 PM »
What is needed, what is optimal is the representation of peoples lives at the highest level.
And the Lords Spiritual really help to ensure that the make up of the Lords is more representative of the demographic of society ;)

We, of course, need more male, white, straight, middle class, private school and Oxbridge educated Anglicans in the Lords to make it more representative of society, don't we.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 09:43:23 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #817 on: March 06, 2018, 09:42:23 PM »
I suspect it would if we got Scotland out of the UK: can't see a role for the CofE in an independent Scotland - but what we are addressing currently is religious privilege in the UK political arena, and while CofE involvement may have fitted the 16th century England political climate it doesn't really fly in UK terms 5 centuries later.
As part of a holistic view of representation and the represented I think it is a great model given a few provisos. I think in every generation it has a place and a constituency aside from it being a great notion.
Today I would say that constituency are those who are frightened their view of humanity will be swamped by a reduced view of humanity as a political particle, held by what has been referred to as the tyranny of the majority. Therefore to reduce this minority from 3.3% (Bob Hope) to zero (No hope) seems to be nothing more than a piece of OCD from those who want it so.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #818 on: March 06, 2018, 09:44:45 PM »
And the Lords Spiritual really helps to ensure that the make up of the Lords is more representative of the demographic of society ;)

We, of course, need more male, white, straight, middle class, private school and Oxbridge educated Anglicans in the Lords to make it more representative, don't we.
Apparently the first Lady Spiritual has taken office so that's one thing you've got wrong.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #819 on: March 06, 2018, 09:47:38 PM »
Apparently the first Lady Spiritual has taken office so that's one thing you've got wrong.
Apparently a touch over 50% of the population are female, so one out of 26 isn't really demographically representative is it.

Nor is the fact that just one is from an ethnic minority.

Nor that the vast majority are private school educated, Oxbridge educated or both.

Nor that not one is gay.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 09:51:33 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #820 on: March 06, 2018, 09:57:37 PM »
Apparently a touch over 50% of the population are female, so one out of 26 isn't really demographically representative is it.

Nor is the fact that just one is from an ethnic minority.

Nor that the vast majority are private school educated, Oxbridge educated or both.

Nor than not one is gay.
But they are Bishops and religious which for a Lord spiritual trumps other attributes. Presumably the demographic will change with time. If you are saying No Bishop has ever been Gay I would doubt that.

Anchorman

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #821 on: March 06, 2018, 10:01:12 PM »
Yes I see that. But as Michael Caine would say ''They're still bleedin' Bishops ain't they?''


If you knew anything of the Kirk - and other Prresbyterian denominations - attitude to bishops and their imposition on Scotland by heavy handed royal clowns, you might reflect on your statement a bit....
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Anchorman

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #822 on: March 06, 2018, 10:03:35 PM »
He might: but then they are unelected and they represent a minority organisation, and some of us are concerned that they get to interfere in political governance affecting the rest of us - as far as I'm aware they have no mandate here in Scotland.

So we need to bin them (along with their 'Lords Temporal' colleagues).
   




They have no mandate in Scotland - the Scottish Episcopal Church...Anglicanisim in Scotland - is not established.
That still doesn't stop them voting on issues affecting Scotland in the HOL, though.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #823 on: March 06, 2018, 10:04:18 PM »
But they are Bishops and religious which for a Lord spiritual trumps other attributes. Presumably the demographic will change with time. If you are saying No Bishop has ever been Gay I would doubt that.
So you accept that the presence of the Lords Spiritual makes the Lords even less representative of society in pretty well every respect.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Christians who don't make my skin crawl!
« Reply #824 on: March 06, 2018, 10:13:29 PM »
So you accept that the presence of the Lords Spiritual makes the Lords even less representative of society in pretty well every respect.
No you are just putting up a selected list of attributes:

Does the prospective Lord possess a Hector or not?

And where does he put Hector?

And what is his/her skin colour?

What school and university were attended?

It's very er, biological for someone who is going to be a Lord spiritual don't you think?