Author Topic: Free-will or determinism - a question.  (Read 27630 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2018, 10:24:10 AM »
How do we explain radicalisation ? I think people who experience sudden transformation are probably subliminally primed for change.
We know you are offering a whole seam of fresh steaming bollocks here because there is no way you would talk this way about anybody convinced at a Richard Dawkins session.

Think again Torridon.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2018, 10:25:36 AM »
Who apart from me, whose experience is not mediated by the press or media, particularly atheist rant sites do you know?

I know and have known believers in various faiths (including, rather oddly, a Christian who didn't believe in free will) but that's hardly the point - are you seriously trying to argue that everybody who has a religious "revelation" agrees?

Seriously?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2018, 10:29:15 AM »
I know and have known believers in various faiths (including, rather oddly, a Christian who didn't believe in free will) but that's hardly the point - are you seriously trying to argue that everybody who has a religious "revelation" agrees?

Seriously?
Probably more with each other than atheists. Are you seriously arguing that everyone who doesn't have a religious revelation agrees?

I guess what I am getting at is that your experiences of the stealth religion of new atheism put your experiences closer to my experiences of aspects of organised religion than to other atheists.

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2018, 10:39:53 AM »
None of us is static,we are always in a state of development.  The things that felt important to me 20 years ago are different to the things that feel important to me now. Information exchange is two-way. Every encounter I have changes me, and I change it.
That might depend upon how you personally define 'I'.  If you identify with 'things that are important to you' which you have currently selected from all the changes you have experienced then what you say is probably correct.  Alan, however, has identified with a 'soul' which may well be in essence changeless, timeless and simply aware.  As an analogy, you have identified with the waves of change on the surface of a lake and he has identified with the lake which has both superficial elements and, shall we say, motionless depths.  Perhaps there are 'encounters' which can change what one identifies with e.g. 'Be still and know that I am', as the saying goes.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2018, 10:40:59 AM »
Probably more with each other than atheists.

Praise be - a miracle! Those who have had a religious "revelation" agree that there is at least one god!

Are you seriously arguing that everyone who doesn't have a religious revelation agrees?

No - why should they? They aren't the one's who think they've had a message from god(s).

I guess what I am getting at is that your experiences of the stealth religion of new atheism put your experiences closer to my experiences of aspects of organised religion than to other atheists.

I have had no such experience.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #130 on: February 24, 2018, 10:46:08 AM »

Our subjective 'perceptions' are of little relevance.

Subjective perception is all we have.
Everything we will ever know derives from this.
It is entirely relevant.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #131 on: February 24, 2018, 10:56:54 AM »
Subjective perception is all we have.

Drivel. Logic and science have shown us time and time again that subjective impressions can be very misleading. Our subjective impression is that the world is flat and stationary.

Is that all you've got to say - once again ignoring the questions and the logic...?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #132 on: February 24, 2018, 11:16:14 AM »
Praise be - a miracle! Those who have had a religious "revelation" agree that there is at least one god!

No - why should they? They aren't the one's who think they've had a message from god(s).

I'm not getting it. What then is your issue is with differences of opinion or religion or what.
Do you not think a religious mistake is possible?, or that there are counterfeit ideas?, or spirits? After all what is a bad meme?

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #133 on: February 24, 2018, 11:24:36 AM »
We know you are offering a whole seam of fresh steaming bollocks here because there is no way you would talk this way about anybody convinced at a Richard Dawkins session.

Think again Torridon.

You're being very quick to project your own agenda onto my words here.

Do you have an explanation for the phenomenon of radicalisation ?

A Dawkins session would not be like, say, a Billy Graham rally, would it.

Science is at heart, a dispassionate exercise.  Quite the opposite of an evangelical rally; religions speak to the passions, to our moral centres.  Science talks about what is, not about what ought.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2018, 11:30:18 AM »
I'm not getting it. What then is your issue is with differences of opinion or religion or what.
Do you not think a religious mistake is possible?, or that there are counterfeit ideas?, or spirits? After all what is a bad meme?

You have claimed to have "cracked a code" and hence received a message that you (I assume) think is a genuine message from your god. The point I am making is that that method of "discovering truth" is, at best, very unreliable, because different people get different, often contradictory, "messages".
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #135 on: February 24, 2018, 01:03:06 PM »

Are you prepared to admit that your beliefs are illogical and self-contradictory? Because that is the alternative...
Of course I can't admit to what you deem to be illogical and self contradictory.  My beliefs are perfectly logical to me, otherwise I could not possibly believe in them.  The alternative to my belief in God and the human soul is a materialist scenario which takes away my freedom to say, think and do what I want, turning me into a material entity entirely controlled by natural reactions to past events, which to me is the most illogical scenario.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #136 on: February 24, 2018, 01:30:21 PM »
Of course I can't admit to what you deem to be illogical and self contradictory.  My beliefs are perfectly logical to me, otherwise I could not possibly believe in them.

You're not being consistent. I've outlined the logic of my position without, I emphasis again, assuming that minds are physical. The only sensible ways you have of denying my conclusion are to argue that my logic is flawed, and say why, or to deny that basic logic is applicable.

Your previous statement ("But how can you be so certain that your perceived logic can drive the will of the human soul?") seems to imply the latter, but now you are denying that is what you meant.

Your other alternative is to point to a flaw in my reasoning, which you seem reluctant to even think enough about it to try.

The alternative to my belief in God and the human soul is a materialist scenario which takes away my freedom to say, think and do what I want...

No it isn't your only alternative and no it wouldn't take away that freedom.

For (what seems like) the ten thousandth time: nobody is suggesting that you can't do what you want.

...turning me into a material entity entirely controlled by natural reactions to past events...

Which wouldn't stop you doing what you want.

...which to me is the most illogical scenario.

Where is the actual logic to back this up?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #137 on: February 24, 2018, 01:36:11 PM »
My beliefs are perfectly logical to me...

Logic isn't a personal preference - it doesn't mean "seems intuitively sensible to me".
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #138 on: February 24, 2018, 01:47:58 PM »
You have claimed to have "cracked a code" and hence received a message that you (I assume) think is a genuine message from your god. The point I am making is that that method of "discovering truth" is, at best, very unreliable, because different people get different, often contradictory, "messages".
Everybody though is in that boat.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #139 on: February 24, 2018, 02:01:45 PM »
Everybody though is in that boat.

In what way?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #140 on: February 24, 2018, 02:04:59 PM »
In what way?
Atheists have here own beliefs. You argued that Stranger. Do all atheists beliefs accord? I think not.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 02:16:09 PM by Private Frazer »

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #141 on: February 24, 2018, 02:17:32 PM »
Atheists have here own beliefs. You argued that Stranger do all atheists beliefs accord? I think not.

What the hell has that got to do with anything?

If an atheist was using a method of deciding on some matter of objective fact that was as obviously as unreliable as religious "revelation" is, then they would have the same problem as you do - and I'd be just as critical of it.

I'm still not seeing this everybody in the same boat of which you spoke...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2018, 02:33:01 PM »
What the hell has that got to do with anything?

If an atheist was using a method of deciding on some matter of objective fact that was as obviously as unreliable as religious "revelation" is, then they would have the same problem as you do - and I'd be just as critical of it.

I'm still not seeing this everybody in the same boat of which you spoke...
Im sorry but how do you know your beliefs are reliable?

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #143 on: February 24, 2018, 02:39:05 PM »
Im sorry but how do you know your beliefs are reliable?

While 100% certainty is not available (aside from logic and mathematics), having objective (intersubjective) evidence and/or sound reasoning seems to work well...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #144 on: February 24, 2018, 03:26:29 PM »
While 100% certainty is not available (aside from logic and mathematics), having objective (intersubjective) evidence and/or sound reasoning seems to work well...
Again what objective intersubjectivity evidence do you have and I don't. In terms of sound reasoning the several occasions in which I have exposed your cake and eat it beliefs tend to go counter to your claim.

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #145 on: February 24, 2018, 03:37:50 PM »
Again what objective intersubjectivity evidence do you have and I don't.

No idea - but you seem to have lost track of the conversation (as you so often do). The point was that your "revelation" or "code cracking" is clearly not intersubjectively verifiable because people don't agree.

In terms of sound reasoning the several occasions in which I have exposed your cake and eat it beliefs tend to go counter to your claim.

All the times I recall you using the term "cake and eat it" have followed blatant misrepresentations of what I'd said, so I assume these occasions exist only in your fantasies and are not intersubjectively verifiable...
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #146 on: February 24, 2018, 05:09:09 PM »

For (what seems like) the ten thousandth time: nobody is suggesting that you can't do what you want.

But the contention is what defines the want? How does it originate? What is it's source?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #147 on: February 24, 2018, 05:23:01 PM »
But the contention is what defines the want? How does it originate? What is it's source?

Once again ignoring the questions and most of what is put to you.... ho hum...

Why do you think a 'want' is particularly significant? Wants are just part of the internal processing of our minds and can arise for many reasons.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #148 on: February 24, 2018, 05:35:32 PM »
Once again ignoring the questions and most of what is put to you.... ho hum...

Why do you think a 'want' is particularly significant? Wants are just part of the internal processing of our minds and can arise for many reasons.
You may be confusing 'want' with instinctive reaction.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Stranger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8236
  • Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Re: Free-will or determinism - a question.
« Reply #149 on: February 24, 2018, 05:40:18 PM »
You may be confusing 'want' with instinctive reaction.

Dan't be silly.

Of course an "instinctive reaction" may produce a want but wants are much more general. You may, for example, want do take some course of action after carefully and thoughtfully considering your options in a complex situation.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))